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Old 05-01-2019, 05:20 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
I remember reading that when GM was trying to rebuild the Cadillac brand about ten years ago, they wanted to be competitive with the Germans. One of the strategies to appear competitive, according to them, was to raise the price closer to the competition because they thought a higher price would make the customer perceive a better product. That doesn't make sense to me, but maybe I'm in the wrong. I know I don't just spend money on the more expensive product just because it costs more. I'm sure I'm leaving stuff out of this example, but it's apparent actions like that that make me think GM management is just not in touch.

I could be completely off on all that. But - sales have slumped bad. Maybe Camaro's been priced out of the market. This is a great generation that has just not been well-received. I think it's a better car that Mustang and Challenger, but it's not resonating. Maybe it's price and maybe GM's just made a car for the magazines. Camaro needs some numbers though. Well all care about lap times, but more people can identify with strip times, and with horsepower numbers. Camaro needs LT5, IMO, and it needs it at a comparable price to the competition. Will it get it? I doubt it.
Not for nothin but GM didn't just raise the price of the Caddys just to make people think it was a better product. They raised the prices because they started adding in a bunch of tech, options, and features as standard on the Caddys. On top of using better materials in the interior, better designs, etc. So it wasn't just the same ole car with a higher price tag. It had a bunch of stuff that was not available in the other cars and that is what made the price go up.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:36 PM   #72
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I was adamant in the thought that GM was not going to put the LT5 in the Camaro. But now I think it is a possibility. I think maybe a 25% possibility. But a possibility nonetheless.

Looking at the 700+ HP cars out there, how many can be had for the price of a ZL1? Not one. If GM puts the LT5 in the ZL1 and calls it a Z28 then what kind of price hike are we talking about? Remember how horribly the last Z28 sold at $70K+? Ok so the ZLE is at $70K MSRP. But how many people are buying them? Throw the LT5 in the ZLE and you'll see $80K easily. Who is buying a Camaro for $80K? I sure as hell ain't. Well maybe. But will they sell enough of them? I doubt it.

The only way this would work is if GM built a very limited amount of them and made sure they were all sold or most of them were sold beforehand. But I think the market for an $80K and up RWD high HP fair weather vehicle is dwindling. It is getting harder and harder to justify paying the money they're asking for these cars.

So I don't think it's a matter of GM doing it so much as being a matter of who is gonna buy it. Honestly, most people with $80K and up who are buying GM are looking at Corvettes. Because no matter how good and how much HP a ZL1 has, it is still a Camaro. And people who want to differentiate from the Camaro crowd are buying Corvettes. Honestly that is why I'm probably switching over to Vettes. Because my ZL1 is still a Camaro. And Vettes just have a completely different vibe to them. Anyway the ZL1 sold because it is basically a 3LZ-optioned Camaro with the same engine but in a Camaro and for about half the price. I don't think a Z28 with the LT5 and full options will be priced decently enough to make people buy it.
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:20 AM   #73
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I was adamant in the thought that GM was not going to put the LT5 in the Camaro. But now I think it is a possibility. I think maybe a 25% possibility. But a possibility nonetheless.

Looking at the 700+ HP cars out there, how many can be had for the price of a ZL1? Not one. If GM puts the LT5 in the ZL1 and calls it a Z28 then what kind of price hike are we talking about? Remember how horribly the last Z28 sold at $70K+? Ok so the ZLE is at $70K MSRP. But how many people are buying them? Throw the LT5 in the ZLE and you'll see $80K easily. Who is buying a Camaro for $80K? I sure as hell ain't. Well maybe. But will they sell enough of them? I doubt it.

The only way this would work is if GM built a very limited amount of them and made sure they were all sold or most of them were sold beforehand. But I think the market for an $80K and up RWD high HP fair weather vehicle is dwindling. It is getting harder and harder to justify paying the money they're asking for these cars.

So I don't think it's a matter of GM doing it so much as being a matter of who is gonna buy it. Honestly, most people with $80K and up who are buying GM are looking at Corvettes. Because no matter how good and how much HP a ZL1 has, it is still a Camaro. And people who want to differentiate from the Camaro crowd are buying Corvettes. Honestly that is why I'm probably switching over to Vettes. Because my ZL1 is still a Camaro. And Vettes just have a completely different vibe to them. Anyway the ZL1 sold because it is basically a 3LZ-optioned Camaro with the same engine but in a Camaro and for about half the price. I don't think a Z28 with the LT5 and full options will be priced decently enough to make people buy it.
GT500 sales plus Dealer ADM will show just how many are willing to spend 80+ on a pony car with 700+ HP.

Demon sales support this niche market as well. Chevy has never even attempted to offer competitive HP to Dodge and Ford. ZL1 is a great car, but it's strength is handling. Straight line, it is out muscled by Dodge and will be by the GT500 as well.

As for Corvettes, I shopped plenty of C6 ZR1s before I bought my C2 GS Mongoose Motorsports car. That was before baby. I plan on keeping the GS, but the next car won't be another Vette, it will be a newer Camaro, so either a ZL1 or an LT5 powered Camaro which I'm hoping for. I already have a road course car, so I don't need another ultimate handling Camaro, the Z/28 showed that was a bad sales pitch at a high cost. The Demon has shown that a monster straight line HP machine will sell.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:19 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by NW-99SS View Post

Demon sales support this niche market as well. Chevy has never even attempted to offer competitive HP to Dodge and Ford. ZL1 is a great car, but it's strength is handling. Straight line, it is out muscled by Dodge and will be by the GT500 as well.
The Demon was a limited run car with the manufacturer purposely stating they would look very unkindly on any ADM with the vehicle. Most were scooped up by collectors...

Chevy built a car that competes very well with the Hellcats head to head in a straight line while out muscling everything else in handling. No, they haven't responded to Dodge or now Ford's high HP cars.... but again, they don't need a massive amount of effort to do it.

A simple pulley swap with updated factory tune would put the ZL1 at 720hp...throw in an aftermarket intake and boom... you're at about 625hp to the wheels..

If GM wanted to go Demon style and offer a copo styled drag street car, I wouldn't be upset about it...but don't call it a ZL1....
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Old 05-02-2019, 01:04 PM   #75
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It's hard to say GM won't make LT5 Camaro in future. Maybe, they can do same formula like LT1 Camaro, just put the LT5 in ZL1. Or, they could put new NA engine or DOHC engine to ZLE as new Z/28.

LS9 never come in Camaro and Caddy, but GM did put LS9 in zeta platform. The final of real Holden, HSV GTS-R, is LS9.
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Old 05-02-2019, 01:05 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I was adamant in the thought that GM was not going to put the LT5 in the Camaro. But now I think it is a possibility. I think maybe a 25% possibility. But a possibility nonetheless.

Looking at the 700+ HP cars out there, how many can be had for the price of a ZL1? Not one. If GM puts the LT5 in the ZL1 and calls it a Z28 then what kind of price hike are we talking about? Remember how horribly the last Z28 sold at $70K+? Ok so the ZLE is at $70K MSRP. But how many people are buying them? Throw the LT5 in the ZLE and you'll see $80K easily. Who is buying a Camaro for $80K? I sure as hell ain't. Well maybe. But will they sell enough of them? I doubt it.

The only way this would work is if GM built a very limited amount of them and made sure they were all sold or most of them were sold beforehand. But I think the market for an $80K and up RWD high HP fair weather vehicle is dwindling. It is getting harder and harder to justify paying the money they're asking for these cars.

So I don't think it's a matter of GM doing it so much as being a matter of who is gonna buy it. Honestly, most people with $80K and up who are buying GM are looking at Corvettes. Because no matter how good and how much HP a ZL1 has, it is still a Camaro. And people who want to differentiate from the Camaro crowd are buying Corvettes. Honestly that is why I'm probably switching over to Vettes. Because my ZL1 is still a Camaro. And Vettes just have a completely different vibe to them. Anyway the ZL1 sold because it is basically a 3LZ-optioned Camaro with the same engine but in a Camaro and for about half the price. I don't think a Z28 with the LT5 and full options will be priced decently enough to make people buy it.
This guy gets it ^ I know people here love their Camaro's but at a certain price point GM has another called the Corvette that is well as Blaq said not a Camaro.(I would say the same about the Mustang even though Ford has no Corvette)

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Originally Posted by NW-99SS View Post
GT500 sales plus Dealer ADM will show just how many are willing to spend 80+ on a pony car with 700+ HP.

Demon sales support this niche market as well. Chevy has never even attempted to offer competitive HP to Dodge and Ford. ZL1 is a great car, but it's strength is handling. Straight line, it is out muscled by Dodge and will be by the GT500 as well.

As for Corvettes, I shopped plenty of C6 ZR1s before I bought my C2 GS Mongoose Motorsports car. That was before baby. I plan on keeping the GS, but the next car won't be another Vette, it will be a newer Camaro, so either a ZL1 or an LT5 powered Camaro which I'm hoping for. I already have a road course car, so I don't need another ultimate handling Camaro, the Z/28 showed that was a bad sales pitch at a high cost. The Demon has shown that a monster straight line HP machine will sell.
I think the problem with the Z/28 was it was stripped of everything people think should be on a 76K car. The ZLE, at 71 or 73 has those creature comforts and still decimates road courses. But like Blaq mentioned above you get to high in price point with Camaro and the Corvette looks mighty good.

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Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
The Demon was a limited run car with the manufacturer purposely stating they would look very unkindly on any ADM with the vehicle. Most were scooped up by collectors...

Chevy built a car that competes very well with the Hellcats head to head in a straight line while out muscling everything else in handling. No, they haven't responded to Dodge or now Ford's high HP cars.... but again, they don't need a massive amount of effort to do it.

A simple pulley swap with updated factory tune would put the ZL1 at 720hp...throw in an aftermarket intake and boom... you're at about 625hp to the wheels..

If GM wanted to go Demon style and offer a copo styled drag street car, I wouldn't be upset about it...but don't call it a ZL1....
But wasn't that kind of the point of the original ZL1 in 69 lol
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it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:12 PM   #77
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If GM could stab an LT5 in a ZLE, I think that's mostly all they'd need to do to be competitive with GT500 and HCs. I know it's not that simple, but most of the hardware is already there. There's already cooling and aero, and they can use TM to help control driveline thrashing, so I don't know they'd be in Demon-territory for price, if they didn't want to be.

What I didn't say above is that I'm not talking down on GM. I think what they're offering are way better cars. BUT - I don't know that they are building cars for regular people (in terms of Camaros - I'm not talking about trucks anymore). People like us appreciate big brakes and e'diffs and shocks that come from a company that doesn't sell to the public. But GM's just not appealing to the masses. I think Dodge has more heart and soul into their product (that reaches out to customers) than Ford or GM at this point. I think Ford just stamps out stuff they can sell. And GM tries to give the customer an outstanding product but has lost what is largely valued by it's customers and out-prices what the competition charges - the value on GM's work is lost on lack of interest. ANYWAYS...

I do sincerely hope they put LT5 in Camaro. I think it can sell and I think it can bring some brand recognition, too. I won't be 3-inch-high-wheelie-for 2-foot-cool but it can still have cred' on the strip where I think it will be most relate-able. If they can get it to throw flames out of the pipes like ZR1, too, I think that would be badass HAHAHA
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
The Demon was a limited run car with the manufacturer purposely stating they would look very unkindly on any ADM with the vehicle. Most were scooped up by collectors...

Chevy built a car that competes very well with the Hellcats head to head in a straight line while out muscling everything else in handling. No, they haven't responded to Dodge or now Ford's high HP cars.... but again, they don't need a massive amount of effort to do it.

A simple pulley swap with updated factory tune would put the ZL1 at 720hp...throw in an aftermarket intake and boom... you're at about 625hp to the wheels..

If GM wanted to go Demon style and offer a copo styled drag street car, I wouldn't be upset about it...but don't call it a ZL1....
I'm not concerned about modding capabilities...I don't want to do big mods, especially as the LT4's fuel system is so limited stock.

An LT5 Camaro would be equally as limited and special as the Demon or very close to it. No reason GM can't offer a specified production number and they will all be sold.

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This guy gets it ^ I know people here love their Camaro's but at a certain price point GM has another called the Corvette that is well as Blaq said not a Camaro.(I would say the same about the Mustang even though Ford has no Corvette)



I think the problem with the Z/28 was it was stripped of everything people think should be on a 76K car. The ZLE, at 71 or 73 has those creature comforts and still decimates road courses. But like Blaq mentioned above you get to high in price point with Camaro and the Corvette looks mighty good.



But wasn't that kind of the point of the original ZL1 in 69 lol
Z/28 argument is exactly what I said. Road course content at max platform price didn't sell well.

Demon shows max content, max HP straight line, limited production numbers (LT5 is hand built and would be a limited Camaro, especially as top dog), yields sales and people paying the price.

LT5 Camaro would best the C7 Z06 in acceleration and the Alpha is crazy close in handling already. Many people would prefer a lower production number car, over a belly-button Corvette, myself included...and I'm a Vette owner.
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:31 PM   #79
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If GM could stab an LT5 in a ZLE, I think that's mostly all they'd need to do to be competitive with GT500 and HCs. I know it's not that simple, but most of the hardware is already there. There's already cooling and aero, and they can use TM to help control driveline thrashing, so I don't know they'd be in Demon-territory for price, if they didn't want to be.

What I didn't say above is that I'm not talking down on GM. I think what they're offering are way better cars. BUT - I don't know that they are building cars for regular people (in terms of Camaros - I'm not talking about trucks anymore). People like us appreciate big brakes and e'diffs and shocks that come from a company that doesn't sell to the public. But GM's just not appealing to the masses. I think Dodge has more heart and soul into their product (that reaches out to customers) than Ford or GM at this point. I think Ford just stamps out stuff they can sell. And GM tries to give the customer an outstanding product but has lost what is largely valued by it's customers and out-prices what the competition charges - the value on GM's work is lost on lack of interest. ANYWAYS...

I do sincerely hope they put LT5 in Camaro. I think it can sell and I think it can bring some brand recognition, too. I won't be 3-inch-high-wheelie-for 2-foot-cool but it can still have cred' on the strip where I think it will be most relate-able. If they can get it to throw flames out of the pipes like ZR1, too, I think that would be badass HAHAHA
This exactly. The ZL1 and ZLE are formidable cars. Even with the GT500 and HC Redeye, I would opt for either one as my next performance car. That said, I would pony up the money for an LT5 Camaro before either the ZL1 or ZLE. Pony cars are about HP, and it's time GM stepped into the ring with Dodge and Ford and offered another knock-out punch like the ZL1 did in 2016.
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Old 05-02-2019, 02:53 PM   #80
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This exactly. The ZL1 and ZLE are formidable cars. Even with the GT500 and HC Redeye, I would opt for either one as my next performance car. That said, I would pony up the money for an LT5 Camaro before either the ZL1 or ZLE. Pony cars are about HP, and it's time GM stepped into the ring with Dodge and Ford and offered another knock-out punch like the ZL1 did in 2016.
Truthfully, I dont think you'll see a ZL1 powered LT5. It'll be a different car, focused purely on drag numbers if they do.... and rightfully so in my opinion. It doesn't piss off/alienate the ZL1 owners, it's different enough to entice others to buy it, and it would be okay if its priced a bit higher.


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But wasn't that kind of the point of the original ZL1 in 69 lol
Different time, and the original ZL1 was purely about straight line speed. And even then, they were called COPO cars first, ZL1 second.
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Old 05-02-2019, 03:02 PM   #81
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Truthfully, I dont think you'll see a ZL1 powered LT5. It'll be a different car, focused purely on drag numbers if they do.... and rightfully so in my opinion. It doesn't piss off/alienate the ZL1 owners, it's different enough to entice others to buy it, and it would be okay if its priced a bit higher.




Different time, and the original ZL1 was purely about straight line speed. And even then, they were called COPO cars first, ZL1 second.
I don't care what they call it. The 2012 ZL1 bastardized the RPO, Z/28 wasn't anything revered until 2014 (the late 2nd gen, 3rd and 4th gen Z/28s were nothing special).
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Old 05-02-2019, 03:03 PM   #82
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I'm not concerned about modding capabilities...I don't want to do big mods, especially as the LT4's fuel system is so limited stock.

An LT5 Camaro would be equally as limited and special as the Demon or very close to it. No reason GM can't offer a specified production number and they will all be sold.



Z/28 argument is exactly what I said. Road course content at max platform price didn't sell well.

Demon shows max content, max HP straight line, limited production numbers (LT5 is hand built and would be a limited Camaro, especially as top dog), yields sales and people paying the price.

LT5 Camaro would best the C7 Z06 in acceleration and the Alpha is crazy close in handling already. Many people would prefer a lower production number car, over a belly-button Corvette, myself included...and I'm a Vette owner.
According to a ZR1 mod'ing video from recently, LT5 isn't too much better in terms of fueling, though, certainly better than LT4. I'd rather start with LT5 fueling than LT4, for sure.
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:40 PM   #83
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According to a ZR1 mod'ing video from recently, LT5 isn't too much better in terms of fueling, though, certainly better than LT4. I'd rather start with LT5 fueling than LT4, for sure.
LT5 is already supporting 850+rwhp. LT4 needs a cam for low side and a lot more work to get there.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:46 PM   #84
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I just cannot see a Z28 in the future. That area is covered by the ZLE stuff. Not N/A but today is simply a power adder era. Soon the '15 Z28 will have value.
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