Zl1 break in question

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by oldfriend

But you still can't prove that , if you have done what you were told to , the car could be in better shape
Or that an issue is brewing in some part on the car , or that the longevity on any part of the car have been compromized
Or can you ?

What I can do is post all the pictures you want of every internal component and why following the GM route will about guarantee oil consumption issues, clogged intercoolers:

Premature failure of super chargers from the rotors thrown off balance causing premature bearing failure, etc.

I have a ton of respect for Scotts position, but until he would be willing to talk technical and address each of the photos I can post, don't turn this into a hate thread again.

I have been tearing these engines down for to many years and see it up close and personal.

Break it in as you choose as the owner. Follow GM's instructions if it makes you feel better, follow the thousands of engine builders if you want results like so many here post, but DONT turn it into another drama thread.

[sledhed]

i dont like how its such a big secret why they recommend such a long break in... its like giving a kid a christmas present in may and telling him he still has to wait until christmas to open it.. i dont know anybody who has that kind of will power. everything i have built and the people i know who build go by the break it in like your going to use it model. however thats not on anything like this. i dont see the need for the secrecy, especially if you expect people to follow it

[BlackinBlack]

Originally Posted by SC2150

What I can do is post all the pictures you want of every internal component and why following the GM route will about guarantee oil consumption issues, clogged intercoolers:

Premature failure of super chargers from the rotors thrown off balance causing premature bearing failure, etc.

You keep posting that one picture. I know it is a LSA intercooler but didn't you say that is from a CTS-V. I seem to remember that the ZL1 has different oil control than the V. Also where are all the pictures of the numerous ZL1s that you have worked on that burn oil due to following the GM break-in? How about some compression tests and dyno runs of cars broken in properly vs run hard out of the box? (And a data set of two cars is not a valid data set size.) Every time this is brought up you post the same picture of the same intercooler. You cite years of experience and I know you have built race cars but how many production 580HP street cars have you built? How many that you warranty for 5yrs 100,000 miles? Of those how many do you allow people to track the car without voiding the warranty?

One incident of oil on one LSA motor is not evidence. Prove to me GM is wrong. That the thousands of hours testing this specific car is wrong. Hours on the track with the ZL1 is wrong. Years of racing experience with teams running numerous LS series motors. Numerous wins at places like Indianapolis, Daytona, at the 24 hours of Le mans, and the 12 hours of Sebring. More championships and manufacture wins that can be counted. Huge number of engineers including the ones that created these motors to begin with are wrong.

I personally have built high HP cars and have worked with many engine builders. All my race motors were broken in. At the very least they ran them in on the dyno and then changed the oil before they were ran hard.It was not like they started the motor and did a redline max effort pull right away. Also for the record race motors are not built the same as a street engine. Tolerances are different, materials are different, heck time between rebuilds is different. I never had a race motor that was designed to run for 5 years / 100,000 miles without a rebuild. I felt good to get 30K to 40K on a street driven max effort motor before a refresh. Heck I ran a huge lift solid roller cam in one motor that required new springs every 4th oil change.

This is the 4 millionth time this has been brought up. You asked GM to prove the break in is needed. Prove that it does not. That over the whole life of the car there will not be issues by not following the break in. That power is reduced and oil consumption is increased following the break in. That the supercharger will become damaged. You ask them to defend their position. Why should they. They built the cars and stand behind them with a WARRANTY. You have to prove that they are wrong not the other way around. Buy 10 ZL1s run half of them hard out of the box and the rest following the break in. After five years and 100,000 miles on both cars show that the ones properly broken in had more issues, burned oil and made less power.

Give solid empirical proof or stop posting that the break in is not needed. That includes the pictures of this dirty intercooler.

[toddsZL1]

Agreed

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

You keep posting that one picture. I know it is a LSA intercooler but didn't you say that is from a CTS-V. I seem to remember that the ZL1 has different oil control than the V. Also where are all the pictures of the numerous ZL1s that you have worked on that burn oil due to following the GM break-in? How about some compression tests and dyno runs of cars broken in properly vs run hard out of the box? (And a data set of two cars is not a valid data set size.) Every time this is brought up you post the same picture of the same intercooler. You cite years of experience and I know you have built race cars but how many production 580HP street cars have you built? How many that you warranty for 5yrs 100,000 miles? Of those how many do you allow people to track the car without voiding the warranty?

One incident of oil on one LSA motor is not evidence. Prove to me GM is wrong. That the thousands of hours testing this specific car is wrong. Hours on the track with the ZL1 is wrong. Years of racing experience with teams running numerous LS series motors. Numerous wins at places like Indianapolis, Daytona, at the 24 hours of Le mans, and the 12 hours of Sebring. More championships and manufacture wins that can be counted. Huge number of engineers including the ones that created these motors to begin with are wrong.

I personally have built high HP cars and have worked with many engine builders. All my race motors were broken in. At the very least they ran them in on the dyno and then changed the oil before they were ran hard.It was not like they started the motor and did a redline max effort pull right away. Also for the record race motors are not built the same as a street engine. Tolerances are different, materials are different, heck time between rebuilds is different. I never had a race motor that was designed to run for 5 years / 100,000 miles without a rebuild. I felt good to get 30K to 40K on a street driven max effort motor before a refresh. Heck I ran a huge lift solid roller cam in one motor that required new springs every 4th oil change.

This is the 4 millionth time this has been brought up. You asked GM to prove the break in is needed. Prove that it does not. That over the whole life of the car there will not be issues by not following the break in. That power is reduced and oil consumption is increased following the break in. That the supercharger will become damaged. You ask them to defend their position. Why should they. They built the cars and stand behind them with a WARRANTY. You have to prove that they are wrong not the other way around. Buy 10 ZL1s run half of them hard out of the box and the rest following the break in. After five years and 100,000 miles on both cars show that the ones properly broken in had more issues, burned oil and made less power.

Give solid empirical proof or stop posting that the break in is not needed. That includes the pictures of this dirty intercooler.

[djnice]

Gm needs to respect the buyer and provide more info.
If I had to do it over I would do a few careful full throttle and full rpm runs with 20 or so miles on it.

[Bigtime53]

All of this talk about the 1500 mile break in period that GM recommends should be followed.They have spent alot of time,money and research developing this car so we the customer can enjoy these great cars and they want us to have the most trouble free as possible experience with them also. You do know that all of the car companies have in the price of the car or truck a built in cost of future warranty claims. I do not know how much it is on the ZL1 but trust me it is in there. So each production year if there are more warranty claims than what the car company predicts on a certain model the price of that vehicle will go up the following year. So if GM recommends 1500 miles as the break in period why would you not follow it? I am not saying that the price of these cars will not go up next year because they will but just maybe they will not cost as much if there is not so many warranty claims due to not following the break in period that GM recommends.

[BlackinBlack]

My guess for the long break-in.

"ZL1 performance parts have a break-in period. For the first 2,414 km (1,500miles) avoid full-throttle starts and abrupt stops, do not exceed 4,000 engine rpm, avoid driving at any one constant speed, and do not drive above 129 km/h (80mph). Avoid downshifting to brake. Do not let the engine labor. Never lug the engine in high gear at low speeds. With a manual transmission, shift to the next lower gear. This rule applies at all times, not just during the break-in period. Following these break-in period guidelines will result in better performance in the long run."


Disclaimer: This is just my opinion based on my experiences with other hipo cars.

I believe the 80mph break-in is not motor related. Common sense is that 80 mph can be achieved with various engine rpm (included red line) depended on the gear you are in. So a 80 mph limit does not really "protect" the engine. My guess is that this limit is for the rearend of the car, wheel bearings, maybe even brakes. I would say if GM was to give a reason the rearend would be why. It is a unique part to the ZL1 and the car is the only Camaro they put the 80 mph limit on. Don't follow the break in and you could have gear mesh issues and a rear differential that howls like a banshee. I have had quite a few custom rear gear setups and all of them needed a break in before heavy use.

They say to keep the revs under 4K and no full throttle starts. It does not say no full throttle. Also no abrupt stops which has nothing to do with the motor it is more related to green tires and brakes.

My car currently has about 6000 miles on it. Non motor systems did change during break-in. For me the most notable was my clutch. When the car was new the clutch had some chatter and was almost a "on -off" type engagement. Now it has smoothed out and has a more linear engagement. Traffic and parking lots are not as aggravating.

I broke my car in following the GM 80 MPH and 4K limit. I personally varied rpm and "load". As I ran though the break-in I applied more throttle. By the end of break-in I was feeding in full throttle pulls to 4K and under 80 MPH. They were clutch out 2nd and 3rd gear pulls. Gear changes were slow to reduce driveline shock that could cause a glazing of the clutch before it had seated in. I did not engine brake, power-shift or hard launch till after 1500 miles. By the end my car had been run in strong but not abused. After break-in I changed the oil and it was on. Car was at the track the weekend after break-in was done.

Following the rules does not mean drive the car like a 95 year old woman on the way to the grocery store in her 88 Honda with 12,000 miles on it. It means run the car in properly. For the life of the car you should also warm it up before running it hard. Tires, brakes and driveline need to be properly warmed up before a hard blast. GM does not recommend it but common sense does. Tolerances are affected by temperature. Running a car cold is bad. Go to any professional race track and you will see them warming the car's motor, and driveline. Google the F1 warm up procedure it is very interesting. On the track tires are heated up. (F1 has the neat warmers and Top Fuel those awesome halftrack burnouts.)

Overall 1500 miles goes fast if you drive the car. (which you should. )

At the end we all own our own car and can do as we please. The hope is that everyone enjoys their car and gets years of trouble free use out of it.

So go drive it.

BTW Remember these articles. GM did not just build this car they spent a ton of time testing.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/12/c...-24-hour-test/

http://wot.motortrend.com/video-find...#axzz2VLmc2yws

[I call it Vera]

For me, it comes down to "Who do you think has the most and best information and analysis"

Let's be frank:
GM Designed it
GM Built it
GM did all the reliability and performance testing
GM did all the statistical modeling
GM has a full spectrum of failure points from the field (I'm thinking all 8 cylinder engines across several decades.)

What does a performance shop have? 10 years of data on JUST what they make. So, <1% of the data GM has with (I'm very sure) far less statistical analysis.

I'm totally following GM. That's the safe route.

[DangerZL1]

I think the extended interval may be related to the larger rear end in the car. Normally, after a gear swap you're told to take it easy for 500 miles, which allows for heat cycling and gradual wear in of the ring and pinion. Maybe GM realizes that a gradual breakin reduces the chance the car will have driveline noises after they analyzed test vehicles? Too bad they want provide any more info besides because I told you so. Engineers and enthusiasts want to understand why.

[littlecammi]

Originally Posted by DangerZL1

Too bad they won't provide any more info besides because I told you so. Engineers and enthusiasts want to understand why.

And every married guy is already tired of hearing "because I said so."

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

You keep posting that one picture. I know it is a LSA intercooler but didn't you say that is from a CTS-V. I seem to remember that the ZL1 has different oil control than the V. Also where are all the pictures of the numerous ZL1s that you have worked on that burn oil due to following the GM break-in? How about some compression tests and dyno runs of cars broken in properly vs run hard out of the box? (And a data set of two cars is not a valid data set size.) Every time this is brought up you post the same picture of the same intercooler. You cite years of experience and I know you have built race cars but how many production 580HP street cars have you built? How many that you warranty for 5yrs 100,000 miles? Of those how many do you allow people to track the car without voiding the warranty?

One incident of oil on one LSA motor is not evidence. Prove to me GM is wrong. That the thousands of hours testing this specific car is wrong. Hours on the track with the ZL1 is wrong. Years of racing experience with teams running numerous LS series motors. Numerous wins at places like Indianapolis, Daytona, at the 24 hours of Le mans, and the 12 hours of Sebring. More championships and manufacture wins that can be counted. Huge number of engineers including the ones that created these motors to begin with are wrong.

I personally have built high HP cars and have worked with many engine builders. All my race motors were broken in. At the very least they ran them in on the dyno and then changed the oil before they were ran hard.It was not like they started the motor and did a redline max effort pull right away. Also for the record race motors are not built the same as a street engine. Tolerances are different, materials are different, heck time between rebuilds is different. I never had a race motor that was designed to run for 5 years / 100,000 miles without a rebuild. I felt good to get 30K to 40K on a street driven max effort motor before a refresh. Heck I ran a huge lift solid roller cam in one motor that required new springs every 4th oil change.

This is the 4 millionth time this has been brought up. You asked GM to prove the break in is needed. Prove that it does not. That over the whole life of the car there will not be issues by not following the break in. That power is reduced and oil consumption is increased following the break in. That the supercharger will become damaged. You ask them to defend their position. Why should they. They built the cars and stand behind them with a WARRANTY. You have to prove that they are wrong not the other way around. Buy 10 ZL1s run half of them hard out of the box and the rest following the break in. After five years and 100,000 miles on both cars show that the ones properly broken in had more issues, burned oil and made less power.

Give solid empirical proof or stop posting that the break in is not needed. That includes the pictures of this dirty intercooler.

Simple question if you are telling the truth, can you list your wins, what class(es) and which sanctioning body (ies)? How many championships (Divisional, National, and World) and say a picture or two to back it up? I can and I do.....but I suspect you would never make such a post if you were truly an engine builder and racer.

I'll leave it at that.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Simple question if you are telling the truth, can you list your wins, what class(es) and which sanctioning body (ies)? How many championships (Divisional, National, and World) and say a picture or two to back it up? I can and I do.....but I suspect you would never make such a post if you were truly an engine builder and racer.

I'll leave it at that.

STOP STOP STOP!

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Simple question if you are telling the truth, can you list your wins, what class(es) and which sanctioning body (ies)? How many championships (Divisional, National, and World) and say a picture or two to back it up? I can and I do.....but I suspect you would never make such a post if you were truly an engine builder and racer.

I'll leave it at that.

The problem is you won't leave it at that. People come to this forum to share info and experiences. I go here to look for answers and I understand that other owners could give out bad advice, I understand that they are just other owners. When I see reccomendations from speed shops etc. I would hope I can trust their advice. But when a sponsor goes against the advice of a company who designs builds and warranties the product I would tend to go with the companies advice. Like many people have said this is more than the engine. I have had mine in twice for rear end issues and I followed the break-in. The problems could have been much worse if I didn't. Why do I want to take the chance and possibly void my warranty. I haven't got extra money to throw around, maybe you do. Do I go easy on it now, hell no and hopefully I will be able to for many years because I followed the break-in.