02-21-2022, 11:44 AM | #1 | |
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga.
Posts: 198
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Flex fuel OEM tables/tune gain?
Curious, has anyone dynoed or at least have “butt dyno” results of the gain (or lack there of) of simply installing a FF sensor and enabling the stock tune on an SS? I’m debating on installing one and simply enabling the tune for a bit. Of course I’ll either seek out a custom tune, or possibly do it myself in the end.
Yes I know there is much more gain from a custom e85/flex fuel tune. I just curious if there is any gain from running e85 on the OEM FF tune.
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2007 Colorado I-5 3.7L z85 2wd ext. cab --Totaled 2004 Silverado single cab 4.8l v-8 2wd -- Traded 2018 Camaro SS 1LE -- Current DD |
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02-21-2022, 12:06 PM | #2 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro SS 50th Anniversary Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Missouri
Posts: 929
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Been a while since i saw the orig ff tune... arent the values all negative in the adder table? My impression on my 2017 SS was that it really wasnt ever set up or intended to be enabled... i can only speak to my own setup.
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2017 50th Anniversary Edition | P1X Stage 2
DSX Aux Low Side | LT4 high side | Flex Fuel TooHighPsi Port Injection (installed & tuning) CircleD 3K Stall | QA1 CF Driveshaft Forgestar F14 Drag 17x10 NT555R2 305/45/17 Rear Forgestar F14 18x8 NT555G2 235/50/18 Front 10.84@131 w/4.13" pulley ??.??@??? w/3.7" pulley (installed & tuning) |
02-21-2022, 12:21 PM | #3 | |
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga.
Posts: 198
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Haven’t pulled out the laptop to look at my tune yet but all the videos I’ve watched on it it appears everything (minus changing the AFR chart) was already set up, just needed to enable everything.
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Quote:
2007 Colorado I-5 3.7L z85 2wd ext. cab --Totaled 2004 Silverado single cab 4.8l v-8 2wd -- Traded 2018 Camaro SS 1LE -- Current DD |
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02-21-2022, 12:33 PM | #4 | |
Drives: 17 2SS, 8L90, Cam, Heads, E85 Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: US
Posts: 1,201
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With that said just going to E85 from gas as long as you were not knocking on either fuel, then yes there should be a gain, just from the extra oxygen alcohol fuels have. With ethanol you inject a fuel that has extra oxygen in it (oxidizer) so basically it's like nitrous. The problem is the extra oxygen also displaces some of the hydrogen to where it also lowers the energy content. The end result is a small net gain from just the chemistry and heating value, but that dosent have anything to do with ethanol's higher octane number which allows optimal timing to be run. GM used to publish Dyno charts of the LS stuff certifies to SAE J1939 (they can't underrate or cheat with this certification) which also had the E85 numbers. But you win have to extrapolate those to the GEN V LT1 based stuff since I haven't seen them give out a chart on E85 with these. You could get these from wayback machine since GM has since taken them off their media site long ago. |
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02-21-2022, 01:33 PM | #5 |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
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If you mean flashing a tune into your car that enables the flex sensor that you just installed, then yes, the original gm flex timing tables did gain power when E85 was used in my 2017. You will need to also fix the stoich tables, and there's some other stuff you could do in your initial tune. But I did this (just enabling the flex) initially upon installing a flex sensor on my SS. I gained .164 sec in the 1/4 mile with ethanol using the factory flex timing back in late-2016, times from different days and different tracks admittedly.
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02-21-2022, 01:44 PM | #6 | ||
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga.
Posts: 198
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Quote:
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2007 Colorado I-5 3.7L z85 2wd ext. cab --Totaled 2004 Silverado single cab 4.8l v-8 2wd -- Traded 2018 Camaro SS 1LE -- Current DD |
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02-21-2022, 06:45 PM | #7 |
Drives: 2021 LT1 10 speed auto Join Date: May 2013
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,343
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According to Jannetty, tuned E85 can add a 10% horsepower difference over a factory tune LT1. Factory tune LT1 is approx 400 hp to the wheel, a conservative E85 tune on like a 70E content fuel is 440 rear wheel HP. Keep in mind though a conservative tune on 93 octane can reach 420 hp to the wheel .
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02-21-2022, 06:50 PM | #8 | |
Drives: 17 2SS, 8L90, Cam, Heads, E85 Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: US
Posts: 1,201
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That's most likely 100% due to the decreased stoich ratio allowing the engine to burn about a third more fuel for the given air. If your engine was knock limited with high intake air temps then you will gain more by bringing timing where it needs to be. Ethanol also has more heat capacity so assuming your ethanol and gas are the same temp coming from your fuel tank, then your air charge will be cooler with ethanol, this will also increase your air charge density, but it's a small amount. |
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02-22-2022, 05:35 AM | #9 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 1SS Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NH
Posts: 1,692
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Cold start does crank longer than pump gas. Really noticeable on a cooler morning in the 40s. |
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02-22-2022, 08:04 AM | #10 | ||
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga.
Posts: 198
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Just hopefully the bug doesn’t bite me too hard afterwards and make me want to go FI… (would love to go Hellion twin turbo but I kind of want to run straight e85, with out getting into the ridiculous fuel system cost and I kind of like the idea of how unassuming a bolt on car can be)
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Quote:
2007 Colorado I-5 3.7L z85 2wd ext. cab --Totaled 2004 Silverado single cab 4.8l v-8 2wd -- Traded 2018 Camaro SS 1LE -- Current DD |
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02-22-2022, 08:21 AM | #11 |
Drives: 2022 Lt1 A10 Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: clark, mo
Posts: 8,860
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Killer Performance just completed my DSX install and I have the tune ready to install but going to get a baseline first, hope to do that tomorrow. My C7 gained over 30 rwhp with just the addition of the sensor and custom tune and that was on E70. I think it will very between tuners on how much timing they are adding in the FF tables. We added 5 degrees over the stock tune on that setup as well as on my 2022 Lt1. Stoich and PE will also need some adjusting. My C7 made just under 400 rwhp and we made over 430 rwhp. They were on different dynos but both Dynojets. This time they'll be done on the same dyno so it will be more reliable data then before. The big deal is my C7 went 12.06@116 on 93 and 11.58@120 on E85/tune only. All in all its a good amount of power for the little amount you spend to add it.
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2022 Lt1 6.2 A10, Maggie 2300, THPSI Port Inj/10 rib, Rotofab, E, Nickey, SCOL, Griptech, RC Bandits, Hoosiers/MT 9.80@142.96 1.44 60ft, 6.34@112 707/669 RWHP/TRQ. 16SS Maggie 2650 9.41@147 1.35 60ft, 5.99@119. 16 C7 A8 10.90@128 Bolt on stuff
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02-22-2022, 09:02 AM | #12 |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,800
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It depends on the year and model. My 2016 SS had the flex spark populated but the Stoich table was not properly populated to run E. On a 2019 ZL1 neither the Flex Spark or Stoich table was properly setup to run Ethanol. If I had tried to run E on either of these cars without at least populating the Stoich table properly, the Fuel Trims would of likely went extreme positive and triggered a CEL.
So when you open the tune file with HPt, make sure to look up [ECM] 12300 and see if the entire table is set to 14.1084. If it is then you can not run Ethanol and it will need to be adjusted. The Stoich ratio changes for different Ethanol percentages.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA Last edited by KingLT1; 02-22-2022 at 09:17 AM. |
02-22-2022, 09:17 AM | #13 | ||
Drives: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Augusta, Ga.
Posts: 198
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Quote:
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Quote:
2007 Colorado I-5 3.7L z85 2wd ext. cab --Totaled 2004 Silverado single cab 4.8l v-8 2wd -- Traded 2018 Camaro SS 1LE -- Current DD |
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02-22-2022, 09:26 AM | #14 | |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,800
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Either way If it doesn't have the flex spark table populated post here or in the tuning section and I will get you what you need. There isn't really anything custom far as tuning for E on these cars. You dial in the 93 tune first, then enable the FF sensor, adjust the Stoich, Alcohol PE, Flex Spark tables, and it's pretty much 90% there. Some adjust the Alcohol cranking spark table to help with cold starts.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
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