[Iroc_Z28]

Originally Posted by Mountain

They are. Actually, the Mustang team was asked about it and they said that they weren't concerend with stepping into the GT350 territory with the Level 2. What is stupid is that the level 2 is realistically a $8,500 option, and a $10,000 if you want Recaros. That's thousands above a 1LE that has the same equipment...

and the pp2 doesn't have the E-LSD, and if i'm not mistaken, doesn't get any additional cooling the gt350 has

[mjk3888]

Different Days but still...

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Iroc_Z28

and the pp2 doesn't have the E-LSD, and if i'm not mistaken, doesn't get any additional cooling the gt350 has

Yeah, but I think the E-diff has a larger effect on tight courses and is more helpful with the Camaro's higher low-end torque. I think the Mustang can get away with the pure mechanical Torsen, which I wish was in the Camaros.

Yup, no transmission or differential coolers. But the trans cooler isn't that big of a deal, I my opinion, based on my Camaro and Mustang experience. Just run good fluid. The diff is where I think there should've been a cooler. Also, a better oil cooler should be on those 5.0L with the elevated RPM and high-compression.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Yeah, but I think the E-diff has a larger effect on tight courses and is more helpful with the Camaro's higher low-end torque. I think the Mustang can get away with the pure mechanical Torsen, which I wish was in the Camaros.

Yup, no transmission or differential coolers. But the trans cooler isn't that big of a deal, I my opinion, based on my Camaro and Mustang experience. Just run good fluid. The diff is where I think there should've been a cooler. Also, a better oil cooler should be on those 5.0L with the elevated RPM and high-compression.

1.) Why in the world do you want an old school torsen in place of the E-LSD?

2.) Shelby owners disagree with you on the Trans cooling.
https://jalopnik.com/shelby-gt350-mu...ing-1793541621

[Boost Creep]

I almost feel bad for the Mustang.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

1.) Why in the world do you want an old school torsen in place of the E-LSD?

2.) Shelby owners disagree with you on the Trans cooling.
https://jalopnik.com/shelby-gt350-mu...ing-1793541621

1.) I like the long-term durability and lesser complexity compared to an E-diff. Over a clutch type, I like the typical bias ratios and the overall locking operation better.
2.) Those Voodoo run over 7,500 RPM... the 2018 GT is limited to 7,500 RPM. When you run nearly 8,000 RPM, the cooling you need is completely different than 7,000 RPM. You can get away with no transmission cooler 7,500 RPM and under for track day stuff. Also, consider that the issue is going into limp mode. The actual temperature may still be OK in respect to the gear oil and transmission integrity. It's hard to say what "safety factor" Ford calibrated to.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

I almost feel bad for the Mustang.

Their bean counters keep them from being a performance car, like the Camaro has turned into. However, there is more money to be made from the position that Mustang sells at...

I bet you the PP2 doesn't have coolers, improved bracing and a nicer rear brake setup that the SS 1LE has because they could hit whatever performance targets they had (i.e. "good enough") and their financial group probably would approve of the added components otherwise (and based on better, more durable track performance).

[Cgocifer]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Their bean counters keep them from being a performance car, like the Camaro has turned into. However, there is more money to be made from the position that Mustang sells at...

I bet you the PP2 doesn't have coolers, improved bracing and a nicer rear brake setup that the SS 1LE has because they could hit whatever performance targets they had (i.e. "good enough") and their financial group probably would approve of the added components otherwise (and based on better, more durable track performance).

The PP2 does not have that stuff. Ford has said that it is not a direct competitor for the 1LE. It is intended for the street driving enthusiast who wants to split the gap between GT350 and PP1. Not meant for the track. Real reason for no coolers etc is the packaging and the price which is already more than the Camaro now would be even higher. Have to remember, the mustang is a stand alone platform for Ford. They don't have the cost sharing that Chevy does by sharing the Alpha platform and engines accross multiple models.

[rray200]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

The PP2 does not have that stuff. Ford has said that it is not a direct competitor for the 1LE. It is intended for the street driving enthusiast who wants to split the gap between GT350 and PP1. Not meant for the track. Real reason for no coolers etc is the packaging and the price which is already more than the Camaro now would be even higher. Have to remember, the mustang is a stand alone platform for Ford. They don't have the cost sharing that Chevy does by sharing the Alpha platform and engines accross multiple models.

Big problem with the S550 Mustang platform is weight. Its quite a bit heavier than the S197 platform. Factor in weight with a low torque, small displacement dual overhead cam V8 engine, and it has no chance against the Camaro on drag strips or the track. This situation is very similar to when the 5th gen Camaro was the much heavier car and was getting its ass handed to it on a platter by the S197 5.0 and Shelby GT500. The only way for Ford to be more competitive is to increase displacement and come up with a bigger, torquier motor, or design a lighter platform. But Ford still outsells Chevy. So they don`t really care.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Mountain

1.) I like the long-term durability and lesser complexity compared to an E-diff. Over a clutch type, I like the typical bias ratios and the overall locking operation better.
2.) Those Voodoo run over 7,500 RPM... the 2018 GT is limited to 7,500 RPM. When you run nearly 8,000 RPM, the cooling you need is completely different than 7,000 RPM. You can get away with no transmission cooler 7,500 RPM and under for track day stuff. Also, consider that the issue is going into limp mode. The actual temperature may still be OK in respect to the gear oil and transmission integrity. It's hard to say what "safety factor" Ford calibrated to.

1.) So I also assume you want conventional suspension too because the Mag Ride is too complex? No offense but this seems like some pretty dated "Get off my lawn" logic.

2.) 1k RPM isn't the difference in needing a trans cooler or not. Now weaker brakes tires and overall chassis tuning could contribute to less time on full power therefore negating some of the trans cooling issues, but I prefer not to fall back on the 'slower speeds requires less cooling' logic. I want a car that can perform under all circumstances.

From my perspective, (Engineer Married to a Ford Corporate Manager) the Camaro outclasses the Mustang in Mechanical Performance PERIOD. I felt the mustang was a better looking car and had better outward visibility, but everything else is leagues behind the Camaro. Obviously it would've been very easy for me to take a employee discount on a new mustang, but the Camaro SS 1LE checked the most boxes so I picked it and haven't regretted it for even a second.

[Boost Creep]

From the article...

Originally Posted by Jonny Lieberman

As is the 1LE’s handling. Around our figure-eight track, the Mustang managed a 24.0-second lap. That’s a fantastic time, especially because the 2016 Mustang GT needed 24.4 seconds, and the BMW M4 takes 24.1 seconds. So that’s good company. But by comparison, the Nissan GT-R NISMO, Porsche 991 GT3, and Porsche 991.2 Turbo S all dance the figure eight in a significantly quicker 22.9 seconds. I mention this because so does the Camaro. I’m still having a hard time processing that number, but it is true. The workaday Chevy runs even with the world’s elite performance cars in a true handling test.

For the record, the quickest time we’ve ever seen around the figure eight is 22.2 seconds, put down by both the Porsche 918 Spyder and the Lamborghini Huracán Performante. Meaning the Camaro 1LE is within spitting distance. When I asked our handling guru Kim Reynolds what he thought about the two cars after lapping them, he looked first to the Camaro then disparagingly glanced at the Mustang and said, “There’s about 4,000 years of evolution separating the two.”

I don't think upgrading from a PP1 to a PP2 will make up 4,000 years of evolution.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

From the article...




I don't think upgrading from a PP1 to a PP2 will make up 4,000 years of evolution.

agreed

[Boost Creep]

Funny part is, I bought this car for it's capabilities, and will only ever use a fraction of them.

[Jastone]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

Funny part is, I bought this car for it's capabilities, and will only ever use a fraction of them.

But when you want to use it for a desired purpose, you’re able to without hesitation.

It would be extremely frustrating having a car that on paper seems to be a “track ready” car, only to find out it has limitations preventing the user to appreciate a perceived function (aka run full out on a track for a while 20 minute session)

I think, from what I read here, most 1le buyers use the car daily or semi daily. Either way the car sees a lot of “street” time. But owners seem to track often or at least desire to track often. If the opportunity arises, and the desire is there, these cars can go on track with no extra work other than fluid changes. (Of course everyone here already knows that). For me, that’s what made the 1le a no brainer.

If the PP2 is competitive or faster than a 1le on track (doubt it, but say it is), how would the lack of “track ready” equipment affect it lap after lap? My 1le is consistent, lap after after lap. Plus, we get a Track warranty. Does PP2 get a Track warranty? I doubt it since it’s not considered “Track ready” by Ford.