[cdb95z28]

I had two instances of ice mode in my Gen5 SS 1LE on track.

Once was a very quick transition from wide open throttle to heavy braking on 305/30-19 RE71Rs with Raybestos ST43 pads. This is a known way to induce ice mode. Especially at an autocross event. I adjusted my aggression and allowed a split second between the throttle to brake transition. ST43s have alot of initial bite, even on the street and cold.

The second occurrence was with the same pads and brand new Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (PSC2) in the same above size. Prior to trying the PSC2 I ran the Goodyear 3R. I found the 3R allowed an aggressive brake application but taking that same technique to the PSC2 would induce ice mode. At that time I was also pushing my braking events deeper and deeper. It is very possible that in trying to shorten my zones I was attacking the pedal more. Because maybe going deeper makes one hasten the initial application. The PSC2 is a different tire vs the 3R. The 3R can rock and roll longer and not fall off a ton with elevated temps/pressures where the PSC2 is known as a one lap wonder. The PSC2 may not be as welcoming of aggressive braking. The use of an aggressive pad like the ST43 can certainly create the potential for ice mode, obviously. Add a tire that may not be as accepting to aggressive braking and you'll have to change up your technique.

In both instances, a quick release of the brake and a softer reapply allowed the ABS to "reset" and allow full braking. I didn't panic or stay into the brake pedal. I think having gotten into ABS on track at prior occasions taught me to quickly release/softly reapply when something doesn't feel right or go as expected. The occurrence on the PSC2s was at one of the fastest parts of Pitt Race, entering Turn 17. I was able to reapply but in one of those moments when the human brain can compute lots of data and make a quick decision, I concluded that was not going to be able to make the turn at the higher speed so I just gradually went into the grass with minimal steering input and all was well. The corner worker didn't even see me do it. Since pit entry was right at the exit of that 17/18 combined corner, I self reported to the pit steward who knew nothing of what I just did.


Someone mentioned that the ZLE may not have ice mode in it's programming. The occurrence of ice mode on the ZLE, I think happens less because it has a supper grippy tire (3R) that can absorb aggressive braking. I look at ice mode is a default, not something that is "programmed" into the ABS. I'm not discounting that maybe tighter programming reduces the potential for it. Seems GM changed something within the Gen6 over the years. But maybe it is a result of the resolution of the system, data per millisecond. Things happen too quick for the system to compute a proper resolution? Or it is just a result of the following scenario. It acts the same as if it was on ice. I experienced ice mode in my old '93 Grand Prix, on ice. Same feeling as what I experienced in my '14 1LE. The computer basically just throws its hands in the air and says "I can't control the car if all 4 tires are slipping!". There's no baseline to refer to. Other makes have it too, once all four tires show zero wheel speed, even for a split second, the system says, well "X" pressure is causing lockup, then less than "X" (even of all 4) should reduce it. So the driver doesn't reduce the pedal effort, but the computer does, hence the firm pedal but reduced slowing of the car. That's my own theory at least.

I see ice mode happening from:

Too much pad, too much initial braking aggression, too little tire, or

too much ice

[GunMetalGrey]

So if ice mode does continue to happen, the consensus is release the brake and then reapply and this works every time?

[cdrptrks]

I have tried that but it is mentally hard to fully release the brake pedal when you are trying to do it very quickly because you are about to go off track and the time it takes to do so will still result in you entering the corner significantly faster than you want to if you do manage to fully release and reapply the brake pedal.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

I have tried that but it is mentally hard to fully release the brake pedal when you are trying to do it very quickly because you are about to go off track and the time it takes to do so will still result in you entering the corner significantly faster than you want to if you do manage to fully release and reapply the brake pedal.

Yeah I bet!

[RoaringV8]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

I had two instances of ice mode in my Gen5 SS 1LE on track.

Once was a very quick transition from wide open throttle to heavy braking on 305/30-19 RE71Rs with Raybestos ST43 pads. This is a known way to induce ice mode. Especially at an autocross event. I adjusted my aggression and allowed a split second between the throttle to brake transition. ST43s have alot of initial bite, even on the street and cold.

The second occurrence was with the same pads and brand new Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (PSC2) in the same above size. Prior to trying the PSC2 I ran the Goodyear 3R. I found the 3R allowed an aggressive brake application but taking that same technique to the PSC2 would induce ice mode. At that time I was also pushing my braking events deeper and deeper. It is very possible that in trying to shorten my zones I was attacking the pedal more. Because maybe going deeper makes one hasten the initial application. The PSC2 is a different tire vs the 3R. The 3R can rock and roll longer and not fall off a ton with elevated temps/pressures where the PSC2 is known as a one lap wonder. The PSC2 may not be as welcoming of aggressive braking. The use of an aggressive pad like the ST43 can certainly create the potential for ice mode, obviously. Add a tire that may not be as accepting to aggressive braking and you'll have to change up your technique.

In both instances, a quick release of the brake and a softer reapply allowed the ABS to "reset" and allow full braking. I didn't panic or stay into the brake pedal. I think having gotten into ABS on track at prior occasions taught me to quickly release/softly reapply when something doesn't feel right or go as expected. The occurrence on the PSC2s was at one of the fastest parts of Pitt Race, entering Turn 17. I was able to reapply but in one of those moments when the human brain can compute lots of data and make a quick decision, I concluded that was not going to be able to make the turn at the higher speed so I just gradually went into the grass with minimal steering input and all was well. The corner worker didn't even see me do it. Since pit entry was right at the exit of that 17/18 combined corner, I self reported to the pit steward who knew nothing of what I just did.


Someone mentioned that the ZLE may not have ice mode in it's programming. The occurrence of ice mode on the ZLE, I think happens less because it has a supper grippy tire (3R) that can absorb aggressive braking. I look at ice mode is a default, not something that is "programmed" into the ABS. I'm not discounting that maybe tighter programming reduces the potential for it. Seems GM changed something within the Gen6 over the years. But maybe it is a result of the resolution of the system, data per millisecond. Things happen too quick for the system to compute a proper resolution? Or it is just a result of the following scenario. It acts the same as if it was on ice. I experienced ice mode in my old '93 Grand Prix, on ice. Same feeling as what I experienced in my '14 1LE. The computer basically just throws its hands in the air and says "I can't control the car if all 4 tires are slipping!". There's no baseline to refer to. Other makes have it too, once all four tires show zero wheel speed, even for a split second, the system says, well "X" pressure is causing lockup, then less than "X" (even of all 4) should reduce it. So the driver doesn't reduce the pedal effort, but the computer does, hence the firm pedal but reduced slowing of the car. That's my own theory at least.

I see ice mode happening from:

Too much pad, too much initial braking aggression, too little tire, or

too much ice

Attachment 1105943

I had a 2013 SS 1LE and the ICE mode and ABS intervention was FAR worse than in the 6th gens IMO. Honestly, it's one of the main reasons I sold it and purchased a 6th gen.

[prostcj]

Does running identical tires front and back help with this situation? On my 2017 SS 1le the stock rear tire is about 2% taller than the front. I will be running 315/30/18 square on all four corners for autox this year. For those of you running square set ups, did this help prevent ice mode from being triggered?

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by prostcj

Does running identical tires front and back help with this situation? On my 2017 SS 1le the stock rear tire is about 2% taller than the front. I will be running 315/30/18 square on all four corners for autox this year. For those of you running square set ups, did this help prevent ice mode from being triggered?

No, it makes it much more likely on pre '19 models. IMO.... stick with the staggered setup, find a '19+ EBCM or both. The '19+ module is better with non-stock wheel/tire setups afaik, but there's no getting about the fact the EBCM is expecting to see the front tires spinning faster vs the rears.

[prostcj]

Ok, thanks. From my research it seems like a bunch of witchcraft. Haha

[Sephx1]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

More info in the link below...

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=975

There is a small chance you could convince a dealer to order a EBCM for a '19+ ZL1 if you give them the VIN. I would guess it will be very expensive.

Now is an ideal time to trade for a ZLE though, you can order them at msrp while our '18 car's prices are extremely inflated. People are asking $65k for '18 ZLEs right now, lol. If I wasn't currently investing in developing new products for my own business I'd have a ZLE ordered already for sure. $75k isn't a casual purchase for me yet though, unfortunately...

As someone who has recently been through the school of hard knocks when it comes to ZLE modules, this doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I blew up an ECU and several modules (chassis and ABS) welding on the aluminum block and also replaced the accident damaged steering rack which has a module. I bought a new ECU and chassis module and found a used ABS module with valve and steering rack out of a salvage vehicle. The donor vehicle was the same year, make, model, transmission and even the same color as mine.

The new ECU and chassis module were dealer programmed no problem. The steering module and ABS would not program. Took to the body shop’s programmer, same result. Further research led me to find that the problem was that there is already a VIN in the used module and therefore it cannot be programmed to another vehicle with a different VIN. There are companies that say that they can unlock the module, but they want a ransom for it so why bother.

I ordered a new rack and ABS module, will get them installed programmed this week. I don’t see why you couldn’t order any module you wanted, but getting it programmed for something not in your VIN’s DNA if you will would seem to be the challenge.

FWIW not all modules require programming such as fuel pump power control modules and can be swapped, but ABS modules, steering modules and a list of others require programming and are not easily swapped. Interestingly, the ABS module and valve is half the price of the module alone.

As far as the original topic I would be interested in the programming update if it’s possible.

[DaveC113]

AFAIK, from a licensed GM tech who works at a dealer, the ECU will be ok with up to two modules with different VINs, but they have to be from the exact same car as far as options, etc. This includes ANYTHING with an electrical connection, so the color probably doesn't matter, but something like NPT exhaust and PDR will definitely matter.

On the ABS / EBCM, when you buy it brand new, which is very expensive, it needs to be programmed by placing it in the car and then doing whatever they do to complete the programming. Once this is done, it's done, so you can't just move it to a new car and reprogram it, it will have that car's VIN forever... or unless it's unlocked.

Charging $300 to unlock a module is not that bad if you need it done, that's far cheaper than a new one, and I assume unlocking it would make it like new, so once unlocked, it needs to be reprogrammed as described previously.

As far as the ZLEs, I don't think the pre '19s had any issues with ice mode so I'd guess the ABS software did NOT change on the ZLE from '18 to '19 like it did for other models.

[Rayvan]

You may just need a coach. Smoother *is* faster. Learn to be smooth, and your laptimes will likely *improve.* It's all about weight transfer.

https://speedsecrets.com/why-smooth-...th%20is%20fast.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Rayvan

You may just need a coach. Smoother *is* faster. Learn to be smooth, and your laptimes will likely *improve.* It's all about weight transfer.

https://speedsecrets.com/why-smooth-...th%20is%20fast.

Agreed, but ice mode can often come from certain elements like curbing right before a braking zone, or in autox a slalom right into a corner, etc. If you run square setup and/or grippier tires it's going to make it more likley too. In autox you often want to use braking in ways you don't on track which can invoke ice mode.

There is a good reason why GM hired an engineer to improve the ABS programming on our cars, but you really need to get to 10/10ths before it matters.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

AFAIK, from a licensed GM tech who works at a dealer, the ECU will be ok with up to two modules with different VINs, but they have to be from the exact same car as far as options, etc. This includes ANYTHING with an electrical connection, so the color probably doesn't matter, but something like NPT exhaust and PDR will definitely matter.

On the ABS / EBCM, when you buy it brand new, which is very expensive, it needs to be programmed by placing it in the car and then doing whatever they do to complete the programming. Once this is done, it's done, so you can't just move it to a new car and reprogram it, it will have that car's VIN forever... or unless it's unlocked.

Charging $300 to unlock a module is not that bad if you need it done, that's far cheaper than a new one, and I assume unlocking it would make it like new, so once unlocked, it needs to be reprogrammed as described previously.

As far as the ZLEs, I don't think the pre '19s had any issues with ice mode so I'd guess the ABS software did NOT change on the ZLE from '18 to '19 like it did for other models.

My local GM dealership had concerns and believed that the EBCM ABS module from a used crashed ZL1 with same features as mine but newer year would not work on my car, however, it seems to have worked totally fine, except for one thing, for some reason launch control will no longer work on my car However I don’t know if that is related to the EBCMABS module or not

And yes, a new EBCM ABS module is ridiculously expensive, something like around $2000 versus a used one for $150, thankfully, some forum members steered me in the right direction, and educating me on that and I was able to return the brand new one that I ordered

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

My local GM dealership had concerns and believed that the EBCM ABS module from a used crashed ZL1 with same features as mine but newer year would not work on my car, however, it seems to have worked totally fine, except for one thing, for some reason launch control will no longer work on my car However I don’t know if that is related to the EBCMABS module or not

And yes, a new EBCM ABS module is ridiculously expensive, something like around $2000 versus a used one for $150, thankfully, some forum members steered me in the right direction, and educating me on that and I was able to return the brand new one that I ordered

Yes, I gave you the ebay link to the used EBCM.

In my car I had controls for a rear view mirror camera appear, this wasn't even an option in '18. I may have lost teen driving mode or something too, the behavior of the software is pretty odd. ABS is definitely better behaved, there was a couple times others had ice mode incidents at an autox, in those spots I could feel the ABS considering what to do for a tiny fraction of a second before braking normally, so I'm happy.

$2k for a new one makes the $300 that guy is charging to unlock your module seem pretty reasonable.