[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

Well Tim Allen and even Jay Leno know more about American cars, tastes, mechanical, and performance cars than Mary.

Mary is a bean counter. Mainly worked on the assembly line and HR and management. Her degree is in electrical engineering, hence likely why she's wanting to pimp EV so bad.

A lot of these executives are simply out of touch.

A guy at my part time job just bought a Tesla. He's b*tching because there is no charging states for over 30 miles and has to use the slow home charger.

I'd hate to see Mary having a serious say in what an EV Camaro should look like. These divisions need enthusiasts designing and consulting in the development.

Classic example is the modern GTO. Pontiac bastarized that Cavalier look a like and it wasn't popular.

But then there is Toyota... Which basically didn't really make anything exciting on their own(so we are not counting 86 or Supra) in the last 20 years until recently with Yaris GR, which folks in North America can't have without a lot of effort. Yet they are the biggest automotive company in the world.

Even sports cars and supercar brands like Porsche and Lambo have to make SUVs. Something's gotta keep the lights on. Otherwise, you end up like Lotus and McLaren, always struggling to stay afloat.

(Speaking of Porsche, did you know that 718 will be electric in 4 years? GM isn't alone in this, and 718 is basically what Camaro is to Corvette to 911.)

So you need the bean counters, you just need some passionate people to cancel it out.

I get that people are doubting if GM's "all eggs in one basket" approach is gonna work - Toyota for sure have their doubts - but also remember that there is a reason why people say that if car companies are run by enthusiasts, they'd be out of business in a couple of years.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

But then there is Toyota... Which basically didn't really make anything exciting on their own(so we are not counting 86 or Supra) in the last 20 years until recently with Yaris GR, which folks in North America can't have without a lot of effort. Yet they are the biggest automotive company in the world.

Even sports cars and supercar brands like Porsche and Lambo have to make SUVs. Something's gotta keep the lights on. Otherwise, you end up like Lotus and McLaren, always struggling to stay afloat.

(Speaking of Porsche, did you know that 718 will be electric in 4 years? GM isn't alone in this, and 718 is basically what Camaro is to Corvette to 911.)

So you need the bean counters, you just need some passionate people to cancel it out.

I get that people are doubting if GM's "all eggs in one basket" approach is gonna work - Toyota for sure have their doubts - but also remember that there is a reason why people say that if car companies are run by enthusiasts, they'd be out of business in a couple of years.

The modern GTO is a classic example though. The 5th and 6th gen Camaros at least resemble a Camaro and Muscle car. Despite GM not producing a ton of them, marketing it properly, providing good rebates, etc it's still around.

If the Camaro was totally off like they did with the GTO then it wouldn't have been around this like.

It's clear GM is becoming more bland. I seriously have to wonder what the Corvette will eventually be like. Hopefully that eventually doesn't get basterized as well.

Lambo and Porsche would be able to survive. They just wouldn't be as big but they're still known for sports cars and sell many of them.

I still say with the Camaro the blind spot is an issue with sales. However the incentives along with lack of selection at dealers is an issue too due to price.

Look at Ford. They sell a lot of the base model Mustang GTs and the big Ford dealer 30 miles from me carries a selection of it. The Chevy equiv is the LT1 Camaro. Dealers hardly ever carry the LT1 and when they do carry an LT1 around here they're loaded up and cost as much as a 1ss and they sit there.

Why buy a loaded up Lt1 for 42 grand when a base model Mustang GT with similar performance numbers and better visibility is thousands cheaper and easier to find?

Most of the dealers down here carry loaded up 2SS which cost way more than the base Model Mustang GT and still costs more than the Premium Mustang as well

[Aow4321]

Originally Posted by rickr9504

I am tired of hearing that the Camaro is not selling and they are killing it because of poor sales. I have been trying to locate a new 2SS 1LE for the past 6 months and cannot find one available. The dealers here don't even have regular 2SS. The chevy page shows a bunch but they are all in transit and when you inquire, they are mostly part of an order placed and already sold. Those that are not sold are way too expensive or come with options people do not want.

Conclusion, if Chevy start actually filling the dealers lot, they will sell. I am pretty sure of that. Anything else is an excuse to justify something the woke leadership of GM is planning by making all their cars electric.

Keep checking with Bomnin, I bought my 2SS 1LE there last December.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Have you ever researched that phenomenon to see if it was a majority of scientists and how much credit it was given at the time?

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Why do that when you can remain critical instead? Much easier.

I pointed out what actually happened as someone old enough, and aware enough, to observe and remember. Evolving emotional narrative to support a goal.

I found the link below with a collection of headlines. I selected a few because I assume you won't look. Dismiss it and move on.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-...c-predictions/

[LT4Greg]

Thanks hotlap for posting all those articles as I’m old enough to remember the doomsayers predictions about the pollution effects on the environment especially back in the early 70s and all the years following including now. Maybe some of the younger forum members will read through the articles and understand this is not a new phenomenon.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

But then there is Toyota... Which basically didn't really make anything exciting on their own(so we are not counting 86 or Supra) in the last 20 years until recently with Yaris GR, which folks in North America can't have without a lot of effort. Yet they are the biggest automotive company in the world.

Even sports cars and supercar brands like Porsche and Lambo have to make SUVs. Something's gotta keep the lights on. Otherwise, you end up like Lotus and McLaren, always struggling to stay afloat.

(Speaking of Porsche, did you know that 718 will be electric in 4 years? GM isn't alone in this, and 718 is basically what Camaro is to Corvette to 911.)

So you need the bean counters, you just need some passionate people to cancel it out.

I get that people are doubting if GM's "all eggs in one basket" approach is gonna work - Toyota for sure have their doubts - but also remember that there is a reason why people say that if car companies are run by enthusiasts, they'd be out of business in a couple of years.

Really good analysis. I have to agree that GM is taking a risk putting all their eggs in one basket, but I understand why they are doing it. I’m just certain that it’s not the way I would approach it. During the transition years there will be a significant number of customers for whom HEV makes more sense than BEV.

I know it wasn’t you, but earlier in the thread someone discounted Mary Barra as “a bean counter”. I’m sure she would like it if her competition was equally dismissive of who and what she is. What she really is is a strategist with a broad knowledge base built from all the places she’s been in the company. That includes HR, Manufacturing, Purchasing, and most importantly, Product Development. Product Development is pretty much what Mark Reuss controls now and what Bob Lutz controlled in his last stint with GM. In the time period between Lutz and Reuss, Mary held the job. Not exactly a bean counting job. Not by a long shot. Ironically, Finance (land of beans and those who count them) is one area where Mary has spent little, if any, time.

You mention that Toyota has their doubts. Here’s just a couple reasons why they have doubts. For many years, the Toyota strategy centered on HEV, with Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) being the “ultimate hybrid”. Thing is, FCEV tech is at least a couple technology development generations behind BEV. Toyota is not yet ready to abandon FCEV for BEV, so they are by their own choice behind on BEV. The BEV products they are coming to market with next year are because they have to, not because they want to. Their strategy actually makes a lot of sense. Look at their home market, Japan. It’s a nation of islands where the greatest masses of people live in compressed urban high-rise accommodations. Little if any access to plugs, so BEVs don’t make a lot of sense. And since each island has a finite amount of land mass, they can provide fueling coverage for an entire island with a minimum number of refueling stations. Thing is, that play doesn’t work for China, Europe, or North America. They all have sprawling land masses where it is super costly and not very efficient to deploy hydrogen refueling. So Toyota is maintaining a strategy of mainly hybrids in those areas, but now those areas are mandating BEVs, so hybrids aren’t good enough and Toyota is behind on BEV.

[Devstrike]

From a business standpoint I think Ford is probably heading in the better direction when it comes to the future. They are looking at all their customers from each generation and applying it to their products.


I read and heard last year that Ford stopped the development of the Electric Super Duty which makes sense for what those customers do with those trucks. For the other Heavy Duty trucks I think Stellantis will probably do similar to Ford and I don't know what GM is doing with their HD trucks in the future.



The F150 trucks have a lot of choice with a Hybrid TTV6 a TTV6 and they have the V8 trucks for the V8 or bust crowd (V8 is something I don't expect in the next gen though).



The Mustang is something Ford already predicted and will probably be the last in the segment to offer a V8 and I read several articles to where its life expectancy will be determined by sales of the V8 engine.


Toyota I think when they catch up in the BEV world and keeping other options available is probably in a good business standing too. Their new Tundra with the TTV6 and the TTV6 Hybrid is what I expect automakers in the 1500 truck series segment to probably end up doing with the those trucks for customers that tow and Haul which Ford has already been doing. I expect more hybrids out of Toyota before full BEVs though.


This is where I see things going the Camaro no one but GM knows what will happen but probably be the first performance vehicle from the Big three to be all electric if it does continue on.

[sactownbwoy]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

Thanks hotlap for posting all those articles as I’m old enough to remember the doomsayers predictions about the pollution effects on the environment especially back in the early 70s and all the years following including now. Maybe some of the younger forum members will read through the articles and understand this is not a new phenomenon.

Not to go too far down this rabbit hole but while working on my B.S. I took a geology class and it spoke about the climate models and how they have too many variables and to make some predictions they have to assign values to those variables.

Look up the "Drake Formula", it is for life in the universe but is essentially the template for how climate models work.

Also when you look at geology and the earth, you realize that humans time on earth and especially our industrial time, is nothing in the time scale of geology.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No. The vaccine is supposed to take care of overpopulation. But when the EVs roll out you won't be able to operate it if you don't have the microchip they give you with the vaccine.

cool,but i dont want to be caught dead in an EV anyway...

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There are about 700,000 Americans that would sadly agree with you.

thats not enough...but its hard to get volunteers.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I pointed out what actually happened as someone old enough, and aware enough, to observe and remember. Evolving emotional narrative to support a goal.

If you read the article, this is pretty weak, scientifically speaking. There's always one or a couple dissenters way out in left field. This article seems to be exactly that. Shirley this is not your "proof" that "all the scientists" back in the 70s were predicting an ice age?

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Check the price per liter and get back to us. It is way above expensive. Production costs are crazy. But if you are rich and want to track your classic Porsche in 20 or 30 years it’s your answer.

Everyone knows it's expensive, they're just getting started with it.
$7.60 gallon in 2026...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/09...rmula-1-races/

The cost of li ion in $ per kwhr went from about $1000 /kwhr in 2010 to around $150 today.

Point often missed by detractors of synthetic fuels, is how they can exploit remote green energy which has no easy distribution (like windy southern Chile). They think it's stealing from a cheap EV charge, when in fact it's opening up new carbon free sources.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

If you read the article, this is pretty weak, scientifically speaking. There's always one or a couple dissenters way out in left field. This article seems to be exactly that. Shirley this is not your "proof" that "all the scientists" back in the 70s were predicting an ice age?

I lived through it. I was there. As I originally replied, it was taught in school.

Also, I didn't post an "article" so I have no idea what you claim to have read. The link I post had a time progression of newspaper clippings for major new sources, universities and scientists. I put up just a few.

I put this out as an indirect reply to Blaq quoting what he was taught in collage 15 years ago. I'm not challenging the goal, just pointing out that its an evolving narrative that has become a business in itself.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Hops

Everyone knows it's expensive, they're just getting started with it.
$7.60 gallon in 2026...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/09...rmula-1-races/

The cost of li ion in $ per kwhr went from about $1000 /kwhr in 2010 to around $150 today.

Point often missed by detractors of synthetic fuels, is how they can exploit remote green energy which has no easy distribution (like windy southern Chile). They think it's stealing from a cheap EV charge, when in fact it's opening up new carbon free sources.

The cost of lithium is actually waaaay lower than that. The cost of lithium ion batteries is somewhere in the sub $100 - $125 range. For the whole battery. Lithium is less than 2% of the content of a lithium ion battery.

Lithium has been a commodity for decades for other uses ranging from consumer electronics to medication. It has not been very expensive of and on its own for those uses. If anything, the cost of lithium is going up due to more profitable uses for it. But the cost of the batteries named for it continue to come down at a relatively fast pace. There are other minerals used in batteries and electric motors (cobalt, nickel, dysprosium, neodymium) that have more pressing cost concerns.