[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

So to confirm and clarify what you’re saying, even the new EBCM I ordered will not totally eliminate ice mode, it will just reduce it?

And we are sure and have verified that all the ZL1LE’s never get ice mode because it’s impossible for them to?

You know as much as I do at this point!

The big advantage of the ZLE that you can't upgrade a non-1LE to is how all of the electronics are programmed. ABS, traction and stability controls are all programmed around the ZLE suspension and the 305/325/30/19 GY3R tires.

I am also not sure what you experienced is technically ice mode, there is more than one cause for the ABS system to limit braking force and I think one of those situations has mostly to do with the combination of requested braking force combined with speed and steering angle. Ice mode cause is more of a differential in wheel speeds side to side or front to rear, so if one side of the car is on a different surface than the other it'll limit braking to prevent a spin, or on high grip to low grip transitions it may limit braking to preserve stability. This is why a square setup can make the issue worse, the car wants to see a higher wheel speed up front because the OEM setup is staggered, so a square setup puts the ABS logic closer to the threshold of a high to low grip transition.

I do not know for certain if the ZLE ABS system won't limit braking in every single scenario, I have heard it has no ice mode but not verified with a GM engineer... but it will certainly be programmed for the additional grip the suspension and 3R tires provide. It is certain the '19+ ABS is upgraded as described by the GM engineer in the AutoX thread. How much of a difference that will make for you is also uncertain.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

You know as much as I do at this point!

The big advantage of the ZLE that you can't upgrade a non-1LE to is how all of the electronics are programmed. ABS, traction and stability controls are all programmed around the ZLE suspension and the 305/325/30/19 GY3R tires.

I am also not sure what you experienced is technically ice mode, there is more than one cause for the ABS system to limit braking force and I think one of those situations has mostly to do with the combination of requested braking force combined with speed and steering angle. Ice mode cause is more of a differential in wheel speeds side to side or front to rear, so if one side of the car is on a different surface than the other it'll limit braking to prevent a spin, or on high grip to low grip transitions it may limit braking to preserve stability. This is why a square setup can make the issue worse, the car wants to see a higher wheel speed up front because the OEM setup is staggered, so a square setup puts the ABS logic closer to the threshold of a high to low grip transition.

I do not know for certain if the ZLE ABS system won't limit braking in every single scenario, I have heard it has no ice mode but not verified with a GM engineer... but it will certainly be programmed for the additional grip the suspension and 3R tires provide. It is certain the '19+ ABS is upgraded as described by the GM engineer in the AutoX thread. How much of a difference that will make for you is also uncertain.

Gotcha, I guess only one way to find out! Hopefully I don’t find out the hard way

[Mountain]

From what I recall speaking to someone on the GM autox team a while back, the changes to the ZL1 and SS 1LE were not all that extensive. The biggest changes were supposed to be with the SS cars. The ZL1 1LE, you are right, I don't think was touched.

An issue with trying to swap modules:
1. Everything these days, if you order a brand new module, comes as a "dumb" module and requires programming upon installation. This is done per your VIN.
2. When trying to swap modules from various model years (i.e. a 2019 module off a wrecked car into a 2017 car): sometimes there are various changes to the electrical system between model years and this doesn't work. It could be due to internal hardware changes to modules (might not be the module in question and could be a module in the line of communication) and it could be slight changes in programming due to a variety of reasons, where installed in a different model year may cause some communication issues. Think about this: 2016 modules are simpler and easier to unlock, where just the next model year, 2017, are a little more difficult, yet the majority of Camaro is the same 2016 to 2017.

[SCCAForums]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

This is true even after replacing the EBCM with a 2019 plus? Have you replaced your EBCM already and still had to stop left foot braking?


If so, I think I’ll add the delay between acceleration and braking you’re talking about but keep left foot braking so I can smooth out the corners where I transition between trail braking and maintenance throttle at the apex

My car is a 2020 ZL1, so it is the '19+... (non ZLE). And while the later years got better... that was more for the SS Camaro's... the ZL1's always handled ice mode 'better' than the SS Camaro's in my experience. However, I would tell you that you will find yourself faster, and more consistent when you refrain from left foot braking in these cars. It won't always do ice mode left foot braking... but in all my racing, of multiple makes of cars, full throttle to full brake (ie left foot braking) is the higher % chance of ice mode. I even encountered it 'rarely' on my GT3 & GT3RS. If you 'right foot brake' this will become a thing of the past.

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

If you add a pause between coming off the breaks and starting to apply the brake, then you are likely doing away with the benefit of left foot braking (seemless transition of weight transfer from back to front wheels). Instead now the car will tilt forward fast when you quickly come off the throttle, then start settle during the "pause" and start to tilt forward again as you apply the brake. An alternate approach might be roll off the throttle instead of abruptly lifting and go immediately to rolling onto the break.

I'd be curious to hear from those who have experienced and found work arounds for ICE mode. Is ICE mode more likely to be invoked by more violent weight transfer from back wheels to front (fast lift off throttle followed by fast depression of brake to threshold)? If so, would rolling off the throttle followed by rolling on brake to threshold be a better solution?

Yes, this is why inherently, 'right foot braking' does this... as when you lift off the gas (of full throttle) that slowly transitions the body transfer and then you 'roll on' the brake pedal just the same.

Originally Posted by d15b7

Hey there. First, I’m relieved that you didn’t have a serious incident!

Second, you need to be very careful with left foot braking on track, especially with a forced induction vehicle. You can run it totally out of vacuum brake assist using aggressive left foot braking, and it will feel like you are pressing with all your might on the pedal and it’s barely stopping. I have a dedicated race car which is turbocharged and I have to be certain to wait about half a second between full throttle and full braking on one certain track entering one certain turn, or I’ll run it out of vacuum assist and can’t stop. It is possible (likely?) that by left foot braking it often that you’re inducing the issue. If I were you, I’d quit with the LFB.

Good luck out there

PS I hold racing licenses with SCCA, NASA, and VRG. I’m an Instructor for all the major groups. I’ve been doing on track stuff since 1994, and have lots of years of experience in many different cars.

Agreed with the above statement, 100%.

Will look forward to your update following your next event, and trying 'Right foot braking'.

Best regards,
Dave

[GunMetalGrey]

Hmmm well I hope I did not waste my money with the new EBCM, since I’ll have change my driving style anyways… If both these things together solve the issue, I guess I may never know for sure how much a new EBCM did…

[SCCAForums]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Hmmm well I hope I did not waste my money with the new EBCM, since I’ll have change my driving style anyways… If both these things together solve the issue, I guess I may never know for sure how much a new EBCM did…

Did you actually buy a 'new EBCM'? Or did you purchase a used EBCM out of a later model ZLE?

But yes, just change the left foot braking behavior, and you should be good!

Best regards,
Dave

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums

If you 'right foot brake' this will become a thing of the past.

I am right foot braking in my SS 1LE but I still sometimes get ice mode on stock tires and stock brakes in certain spots on different tracks. I posted more details recently in the Ice Mode thread. Idk if the result would be different if I used the same technique in a ZL1 though.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by SCCAForums

Did you actually buy a 'new EBCM'? Or did you purchase a used EBCM out of a later model ZLE?

But yes, just change the left foot braking behavior, and you should be good!

Best regards,
Dave

After reading the other thread more carefully, apparently GM made changes to every model trim for 2019 on words including the ZL1.

I bought a new EBCM from GM through my dealership that will be arriving this week for installation, But now I realize it apparently comes blank and I will need my dealership to flash program it using VIN number from a 2019 or newer ZL1 with the same options as mine, mainly the A-10 automatic transmission.

I did not realized the later part, so I’ll find out from my dealership what they can do early this week…

[Krispy]

GunMetalGrey, I'm very interested in the outcome of the EBCM swap & program, when is your next scheduled track day after installation?

I have a '17 SS1LE with 18" 315 square tire setup(Nankang CRS) and am having intermittent brake performance manifesting itself very simiilar to yours. Unfortunately many of the local tracks I attend have bumpy brake zones which makes the problem extremly pronouced. Yes, I can drive around the problem with being more conservative with the brakes however it's costing performance/laptime. It wasn't a problem for me last summer with the OEM staggered SC3 setup.


Any other potiential EBCM "solutions" other than swaping 2019+ unit, or buying a ZLE? What are people with heavily modified race cars doing? Any aftermarket products?

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Krispy

GunMetalGrey, I'm very interested in the outcome of the EBCM swap & program, when is your next scheduled track day after installation?

Any other potential EBCM "solutions" other than swapping 2019+ unit, or buying a ZLE? What are people with heavily modified race cars doing? Any aftermarket products?

I'll definitely let you know for sure, I plan on getting back out at the end of the month Aug 25th or Sept 3rd, assuming my dealership can/will flash the new EBCM, but if I need to get one from an autowrecker then that might take longer... Just waiting to hear back from my dealership now to confirm they can indeed do this with the new EBCM they ordered for me

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

After reading the other thread more carefully, apparently GM made changes to every model trim for 2019 on words including the ZL1.

I bought a new EBCM from GM through my dealership that will be arriving this week for installation, But now I realize it apparently comes blank and I will need my dealership to flash program it using VIN number from a 2019 or newer ZL1 with the same options as mine, mainly the A-10 automatic transmission.

I did not realized the later part, so I’ll find out from my dealership what they can do early this week…

Personally, I'd just buy the one on ebay for $60 from a '19 ZL1 w/A10. Should take an hour or so to install for an experienced tech. It has the VIN of the car listed in the description, so if you're set on a new one you could give the dealer that VIN number.

[Krispy]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Personally, I'd just buy the one on ebay for $60 from a '19 ZL1 w/A10. Should take an hour or so to install for an experienced tech. It has the VIN of the car listed in the description, so if you're set on a new one you could give the dealer that VIN number.

Does it not seem strange you can apparently get these on eBay for ~$60 but from a dealer it would be ~$1.5k?

[SCCAForums]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

I am right foot braking in my SS 1LE but I still sometimes get ice mode on stock tires and stock brakes in certain spots on different tracks. I posted more details recently in the Ice Mode thread. Idk if the result would be different if I used the same technique in a ZL1 though.

Yeah, unfortunately ALL SS Camaro's (1LE included) still are far more sensitive to Ice Mode than their ZL1 brothers. SS Camaro's got noticeably better after 2019.

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

After reading the other thread more carefully, apparently GM made changes to every model trim for 2019 on words including the ZL1.

I bought a new EBCM from GM through my dealership that will be arriving this week for installation, But now I realize it apparently comes blank and I will need my dealership to flash program it using VIN number from a 2019 or newer ZL1 with the same options as mine, mainly the A-10 automatic transmission.

I did not realized the later part, so I’ll find out from my dealership what they can do early this week…

I had made the same mistake, and I don't believe you can 'give them a vin', the unit has to be 'plugged into' the vehicle for programming, so it will automatically download your cars vin, and thus, not have any changes programmed.

I ended up purchasing everything off eBay, from a salvage car, where they were selling on the BCM's... just make sure the options/package/model of the vehicle with removed BCM's are what you're looking for. This is how I updated my Rear Diff Controller and Shocks, by installing ZL1 1LE modules.

Originally Posted by Krispy

GunMetalGrey, I'm very interested in the outcome of the EBCM swap & program, when is your next scheduled track day after installation?

I have a '17 SS1LE with 18" 315 square tire setup(Nankang CRS) and am having intermittent brake performance manifesting itself very simiilar to yours. Unfortunately many of the local tracks I attend have bumpy brake zones which makes the problem extremly pronouced. Yes, I can drive around the problem with being more conservative with the brakes however it's costing performance/laptime. It wasn't a problem for me last summer with the OEM staggered SC3 setup.


Any other potiential EBCM "solutions" other than swaping 2019+ unit, or buying a ZLE? What are people with heavily modified race cars doing? Any aftermarket products?

'16-'18 cars are inherintly more prone to ice mode in my experience, just have to be very aware of your on and off gas/brake inputs. First I've heard of the ECBM swap, so will be interesting to learn in GunMetal's case!

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Personally, I'd just buy the one on ebay for $60 from a '19 ZL1 w/A10. Should take an hour or so to install for an experienced tech. It has the VIN of the car listed in the description, so if you're set on a new one you could give the dealer that VIN number.

Agree with Dave here... although I don't think the dealer can flash it without it being installed... so new one will still realistically just be same as you have. eBay route should at least get you the right programming module, if that's where the improvement comes from, that is the part we don't really know.

Best regards,
Dave

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Personally, I'd just buy the one on ebay for $60 from a '19 ZL1 w/A10. Should take an hour or so to install for an experienced tech. It has the VIN of the car listed in the description, so if you're set on a new one you could give the dealer that VIN number.

Seriously $60?!? wow I should have looked at that link you sent along with the price, I had no idea

One question, how do you know that you are for sure getting the right match (in terms of same trim and the right year) when it's off ebay? I guess there is no reason to lie unless there is a big enough market for this EBCM thing, which I doubt