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Old 07-01-2020, 10:54 PM   #169
RobbyBeefcake87

 
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Good for you - but while the 1LE is a great track car, it doesn't bring the interest that a Shelby or Hellcat does to the lineup. A few enthusiasts, yes, but that's it. You think the reason the base GT500 is $73k is only because of the name? That it has nothing to do with the 760 hp monster under the hood, the DCT, the updated suspension, front/rear end changes, aero development, etc. etc.? Ha. Don't get me wrong, 1LE is a great option package, but to say the Shelby's cost more simply because the name attached to it is blind.



Correction - the 6th gen Camaros are the best in their class at going around a track. They are not the quickest in a straight line. They have the least room. Least visibility. Weirdest ergos. You Camaro guys hang your hat on this one fact (going around turns), and sometimes fall back on that the M6 SS is a couple of tenths quicker in the 1/4 than the M6 GT PP1, even though they trap similar speeds. If you are a track rat, then yes, the 1LE makes perfect sense since those other things don't matter. But for most people, they do.



Again, see my post above. The extra money comes with Ford Performance engines and other upgrades. And regarding Shelby back in the 60s: Who doesn't like Corvettes? Corvettes are AMERICA's sports car (not withstanding the Viper that I hope returns). We're talking about Camaros here. Camaro didn't even exist at the time.



PP1 w/ MagneRide doesn't suck. I just took mine up a long curvy mountain road drive on Sunday. It's actually very good. Maybe it isn't as good as the SS, but still, it is darn good up those curvy roads and I always enjoy those drives very much.
Lol the m6 ss is a couple of tenths quicker huh? The a10 mustang was 1 tenth quicker than the a10 ss. The m6 ss is 3 tenths faster than a GT and has consistently trapped higher when comparing similarly equiped vehicles. The m6 ss is as quick in the 1/4 as the 526hp gt350 and traps similarly albeit usually a little lower. Mustang guys just fall back on the fact that Car and Driver tested the a10 5.0 at 12.1 vs 12.2 for the ss a10. That's the mustang GTs only win and only thing it can "hang its hat on".

The bad visibility is subjective but I'll concede that most dont like it, however the Mustangs isn't exactly amazing either and ergos are totally subjective and some people like the feeling of sitting in their car not on top of their car. Interior wise both cars are nice enough while not being spectacular.

Good for you that you like the way your a10 pp1 with mag ride feels around a curvy road. That's pretty subjective and doesn't hold much weight, same as me thinking the camaros visibility isn't that bad. The fact is that the pp1 a10 was slower than a civic type r around the Throttle House track, and about 3 seconds slower than a pp2 in that same small track. It may not totally suck but it's also not anything to write home about.

While Shelby vehicles have upgraded equipment over regular mustangs for sure, like the expensive voodoo, predator, dct and v6 camaros tr3160. You would be very naive to think the Shelby emblem isn't carrying a premium.
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Old 07-02-2020, 08:37 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87 View Post
While Shelby vehicles have upgraded equipment over regular mustangs for sure, like the expensive voodoo, predator, dct and v6 camaros tr3160. You would be very naive to think the Shelby emblem isn't carrying a premium.
I will disagree with that sort of lol. Strictly speaking on terms of MSRP the Shelby Mustangs IMO would cost them same as they do know if they were back to SVT Cobra Mustangs or whatever ford wants to call them. Where the extra bump in pricing comes from IMO is a solid chunk of those specialty parts are unique to just the Mustang. Maybe I am just dumb but I don't think Ford bumped the MSRP just because of the badge

Ford fan boys favorite dig at the Camaro is that it is nothing special because its a parts bin car. Well They have a fantastic bin to pull from and engines/transmissions/chassis shared across multiple models bring cost down. LT4 used in 3 vehicles, alpha used in 3, A10 in multiple vehicles, cooling lessons learned from C7 Z06. That's a lot of know how and trickle down and cost savings.

Now where I will agree is people (general public and greedy delaers )definitely view the shelby name as premium, same way some people view M or AMG as premium and thats why they charge ADM and idiots pay it
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(

Last edited by shaffe; 07-02-2020 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:00 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87 View Post
Lol the m6 ss is a couple of tenths quicker huh? The a10 mustang was 1 tenth quicker than the a10 ss. The m6 ss is 3 tenths faster than a GT and has consistently trapped higher when comparing similarly equiped vehicles. The m6 ss is as quick in the 1/4 as the 526hp gt350 and traps similarly albeit usually a little lower. Mustang guys just fall back on the fact that Car and Driver tested the a10 5.0 at 12.1 vs 12.2 for the ss a10. That's the mustang GTs only win and only thing it can "hang its hat on".

The bad visibility is subjective but I'll concede that most dont like it, however the Mustangs isn't exactly amazing either and ergos are totally subjective and some people like the feeling of sitting in their car not on top of their car. Interior wise both cars are nice enough while not being spectacular.

Good for you that you like the way your a10 pp1 with mag ride feels around a curvy road. That's pretty subjective and doesn't hold much weight, same as me thinking the camaros visibility isn't that bad. The fact is that the pp1 a10 was slower than a civic type r around the Throttle House track, and about 3 seconds slower than a pp2 in that same small track. It may not totally suck but it's also not anything to write home about.

While Shelby vehicles have upgraded equipment over regular mustangs for sure, like the expensive voodoo, predator, dct and v6 camaros tr3160. You would be very naive to think the Shelby emblem isn't carrying a premium.
I disagree with the statement that the M6 SS "consistently trapped higher" than a Gen 3 Coyote M6 GT. The SS test trap speeds have been too varied to make that declaration. Both MT and C&D tested the PP1 M6 Gen 3 Coyote Mustang GT and got 12.6 @ 115 mph. I've seen the 6th Gen M6 SS range from 12.5 @ 113.4 mph (R&T), 12.4 @ 114.6 mph (MT), 12.5 @ 114.8 mph (MT long term tester), 12.5 @ 115.2 mph (MT 2018 M6 test), SS 1LE in C&D last year (12.3 @ 116 mph). C&D had a ringer M6 long term tester that ran 12.3 @ 118 mph, but that was certainly an outlier trap speed as even the A8 couldn't match that, and MT's A10 SS test was 2+ mph lower.

And if you're comparing A10 trims - both C&D and MT ran 12.1 sec for the PP1 GT A10 @ 120 and 118.8 mph, respectively. For the A10 SS, MT only ran 12.4 @ 115.8 mph and yes C&D ran 12.2 @ 118 mph. C&D also ran an A8 SS 12.3 @ 116 mph.
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Old 07-02-2020, 02:56 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
I disagree with the statement that the M6 SS "consistently trapped higher" than a Gen 3 Coyote M6 GT. The SS test trap speeds have been too varied to make that declaration. Both MT and C&D tested the PP1 M6 Gen 3 Coyote Mustang GT and got 12.6 @ 115 mph. I've seen the 6th Gen M6 SS range from 12.5 @ 113.4 mph (R&T), 12.4 @ 114.6 mph (MT), 12.5 @ 114.8 mph (MT long term tester), 12.5 @ 115.2 mph (MT 2018 M6 test), SS 1LE in C&D last year (12.3 @ 116 mph). C&D had a ringer M6 long term tester that ran 12.3 @ 118 mph, but that was certainly an outlier trap speed as even the A8 couldn't match that, and MT's A10 SS test was 2+ mph lower.

And if you're comparing A10 trims - both C&D and MT ran 12.1 sec for the PP1 GT A10 @ 120 and 118.8 mph, respectively. For the A10 SS, MT only ran 12.4 @ 115.8 mph and yes C&D ran 12.2 @ 118 mph. C&D also ran an A8 SS 12.3 @ 116 mph.
I noticed for the mustang you left out the C&D test of the 1le vs the pp2 where the ss ran 12.3@116 and the pp2 ran 12.6@114. Same test, the ss was 2mph faster in trap speed. You also left out Motortrends 12.6 113mph run for the pp2. Another note of the ss consistently trapping higher would be in the ss 1le vs thegt pp1 where the ss trapped 115.2 and the gt 115.1, the 1le being a more aero heavy vehicle to boot. Also seems like you included the pretty low R&T 113 trap for the ss but left out last years ss 1le that trapped 115.9 according to R&T.

I know you're trying to paint a narrative but it seems whenever they've gone head to head the ss traps higher, more so when comparing similar trims.

If the C&D ss that ran 118mph (twice) is a ringer than so is the a10 GT that ran 120mph.

You actually do this a lot man. You pick and chose your stats for certain cars but not others. In another post responding to Blaq I believe, you claimed the m6 GT traps at 115+ even though there's no test showing anything more than 115, and if the + is for a decibel you didn't do that for any of the other times cited in said post. In the same post you claimed the gt350 as a 12.3 119mph car even though there are more 12.5 117mph instrumented tests out there. You also claimed the a10 pp1 gt as a 12.1 120mph car even though only one test shows that. While I have no problem with putting the cars best recorded times and trap speeds (most people do), you only do it for mustangs and not Camaros oddly enough. The best as well as most recent m6 camaro ss's tests have shown 12.3 @116, you don't like that so you dismiss it bring up slower tests which you completely ignore for the Mustangs.
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:24 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87 View Post
I noticed for the mustang you left out the C&D test of the 1le vs the pp2 where the ss ran 12.3@116 and the pp2 ran 12.6@114. Same test, the ss was 2mph faster in trap speed. You also left out Motortrends 12.6 113mph run for the pp2. Another note of the ss consistently trapping higher would be in the ss 1le vs thegt pp1 where the ss trapped 115.2 and the gt 115.1, the 1le being a more aero heavy vehicle to boot. Also seems like you included the pretty low R&T 113 trap for the ss but left out last years ss 1le that trapped 115.9 according to R&T.

I know you're trying to paint a narrative but it seems whenever they've gone head to head the ss traps higher, more so when comparing similar trims.

If the C&D ss that ran 118mph (twice) is a ringer than so is the a10 GT that ran 120mph.

You actually do this a lot man. You pick and chose your stats for certain cars but not others. In another post responding to Blaq I believe, you claimed the m6 GT traps at 115+ even though there's no test showing anything more than 115, and if the + is for a decibel you didn't do that for any of the other times cited in said post. In the same post you claimed the gt350 as a 12.3 119mph car even though there are more 12.5 117mph instrumented tests out there. You also claimed the a10 pp1 gt as a 12.1 120mph car even though only one test shows that. While I have no problem with putting the cars best recorded times and trap speeds (most people do), you only do it for mustangs and not Camaros oddly enough. The best as well as most recent m6 camaro ss's tests have shown 12.3 @116, you don't like that so you dismiss it bring up slower tests which you completely ignore for the Mustangs.
I always find these stats funny and entertaining. Seriously anything within a margin of 2-3 MPH and anything under .05 time wise is trivial. Hell you can take the same car, same driver and get those variables from run to run.

I don't get why fan boys get so hung up on spreadsheet numbers that mean very little in the real world.

I guess maybe to prove they are right and because they have nothing better to do. This isn't Gone in 60 Seconds, LOL

Those that like to argue spreadsheet numbers, there is no winning or reasoning with. They remind me of my ex-wife, will argue a point to death just to be right no matter how trivial.
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:30 PM   #174
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I always find these stats funny and entertaining. Seriously anything within a margin of 2-3 MPH and anything under .05 time wise is trivial. Hell you can take the same car, same driver and get those variables from run to run.

I don't get why fan boys get so hung up on spreadsheet numbers that mean very little in the real world.
It's like the guy that had the GT350 on here and never tracked it... they're too busy bench racing to get out and actually drive their cars.

Some folks like to drive their cars, some just like to own them and brag about the performance at the same time they brag about how few miles they have on their garage queen.
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Old 07-02-2020, 07:55 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by TRZ06 View Post
I always find these stats funny and entertaining. Seriously anything within a margin of 2-3 MPH and anything under .05 time wise is trivial. Hell you can take the same car, same driver and get those variables from run to run.

I don't get why fan boys get so hung up on spreadsheet numbers that mean very little in the real world.

I guess maybe to prove they are right and because they have nothing better to do. This isn't Gone in 60 Seconds, LOL

Those that like to argue spreadsheet numbers, there is no winning or reasoning with. They remind me of my ex-wife, will argue a point to death just to be right no matter how trivial.
Agreed, but at the end of the day it's still fun to debate the stats kind of like a sport lol. Spread sheet numbers especially in a manual can be pretty meaningless in the real world, being that the driver will play a big factor in it, but at the end of the day times and trap speed can give you a good idea on what the car is capable of.

Also I assume you mean anything under .5 is trivial because I don't know anyone that argues about .05 lol.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:03 PM   #176
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Good for you - but while the 1LE is a great track car, it doesn't bring the interest that a Shelby or Hellcat does to the lineup. A few enthusiasts, yes, but that's it. You think the reason the base GT500 is $73k is only because of the name? That it has nothing to do with the 760 hp monster under the hood, the DCT, the updated suspension, front/rear end changes, aero development, etc. etc.? Ha. Don't get me wrong, 1LE is a great option package, but to say the Shelby's cost more simply because the name attached to it is blind.
Please elaborate on what you are basing this lack of interest on, and don’t waster out time quoting sales. In regards, to GT500 and all this special goodness you mention… joke that is what it is. Failed attempt to out do ZL1/ZLE with years of development time. In my industry we call this a failed project and time for people to update their resumes and move on.

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Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Correction - the 6th gen Camaros are the best in their class at going around a track. They are not the quickest in a straight line. They have the least room. Least visibility. Weirdest ergos. You Camaro guys hang your hat on this one fact (going around turns), and sometimes fall back on that the M6 SS is a couple of tenths quicker in the 1/4 than the M6 GT PP1, even though they trap similar speeds. If you are a track rat, then yes, the 1LE makes perfect sense since those other things don't matter. But for most people, they do.
Wrong. By the way how much time have you actually spent in a 6th Gen Camaro? You toss around your BS statements as if you have extensive experience. So enlighten us. As for only being good at going around a corner again you are mistaken. GM Alpha chassis and MRC is just plain better than Frods attempt. As was previously mentioned they are good on the road and if you fit in the car, comfortable as well. Concerning PP1/2/GT350/R handling. I have spent a good deal of time on track with GT/GT350/R cars and can tell you from first hand experience they are a handful when pushed hard.

Most performance car buyers are willing to forgive a few short comings in exchange for the performance benefits. In this case sorry buddy, Mustang is just not as good as Camaro at most things. Go ahead and whine on about the visibility, not an issue once you acclimate. The back seat is cramped and trunk too small? Well anyone who buys a Camaro or for that matter a Mustang and believes they are going to stuff a family of 5 onboard needs a reality check. Again, both cars have compromises, deal with it, or buy an Accord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Again, see my post above. The extra money comes with Ford Performance engines and other upgrades. And regarding Shelby back in the 60s: Who doesn't like Corvettes? Corvettes are AMERICA's sports car (not withstanding the Viper that I hope returns). We're talking about Camaros here. Camaro didn't even exist at the time.
See my post above. Agree Corvettes and Camaros are great and Viper comeback would be fantastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
PP1 w/ MagneRide doesn't suck. I just took mine up a long curvy mountain road drive on Sunday. It's actually very good. Maybe it isn't as good as the SS, but still, it is darn good up those curvy roads and I always enjoy those drives very much.
See my post above.
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