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Old 06-26-2019, 02:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
..

The frustrating part is under the skin the Camaro is a world-class car. I put the blame on the design department; most likely management, who just didn't know what to do with the car. That was painfully evident in the refresh designs which looked like an attempt to blatantly pander to the toy robot crowd, while completely ignoring the demographic they'd priced it in. It wasn't too expensive for the way it performed, it was too expensive for the way it looked more than anything else. Once you go above $40k, the competition for that demographic is extremely intense; everybody wants them. Now you aren't competing against Mustangs, you're competing against BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Alfa Romeo just to name a few. Camaro doesn't and didn't have the prestige or snob appeal that so many of those other names have, and it doesn't have the looks; either on the outside or inside to compete for the same dollars everybody else is competing for.

...
I enjoy your posts Doc, but there is no BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Alfa Romeo that will compete with a $40K Camaro in terms of driving fun and performance. At current real prices, 40K gets you a 2SS Camaro with 455HP and lots of interior goodies. 40K in those other cars might get you a decent interior, but nowhere near 455 HP. Camaro/Mustang/Challenger aren't designed to compete with the luxury names of the word in both interior material quality, and performance, nor should they ever be.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:04 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by AlphaDream View Post
GM is putting out the "delayed, not terminated" story to protect current Camaro sales. Call it whatever you want, but there is currently no development team for a 7th gen Alpha2 platform Camaro. The team was disbanded because the Camaro7 under development had exactly the same flaws that compromised sales of the Camaro6, and to fix the flaws they would have had to basically throw out years of development time and money to start over.

Given Camaro6 sales, it would have been a hard sell to bring the Camaro7 to market, but to ask for extra development funds in order to fix the Camaro7 design flaws carried over from Camaro6? It would have been ludicrous.

No Camaro based on the Alpha2 platform will ever be available for sale short of a seismic change in the sports car market. A future VSS-R based Camaro is a possibility, but by the time we get one it will probably feature dual motors instead of a V8.
I am not sure why you are thinking that the same flaws of the Gen6 would be present on an AlphaII platform. If you take a look at the CTS and compare it to a CT5 (which went from an Alpha to AlphaII platform), you will see a taller roofline and a shorter beltine giving it better visibility. I would assume that if there was going to be a 7thGen based off of AlphaII, it would/could have fixed the visibility issue. And I'm pretty sure that the AlphaII could support a larger trunk opening. As far as the rear seats, the CT5 has roomy rear seats, so I think Chevy was going to fix these issues with the AlphaII based Gen7.

Personnaly, I think it's more of the CAFE requirements that are pushing things back. I also think the Camaro may skip the AlphaII altogether and be delayed for the VSS-R platform (or vehicle set, if you will). The VSS-R is supposed to underpin all GM RWD/RWD based AWD, longitudinal vehicles. Which would include Camaro, if there will be one.

This delay gives time to develop the new platform, gives time for the C8 to roll out more powertrains that can be borrowed, and frees up resources to work on this big transition to electric/electric-assisted vehicles. Also, why put the Camaro on the AlphaII platform, when all GM vehicles will go to four platfoms in the pretty near future. Why not skip the AlphaII and go straight to the VSS-R? That also reduces the amount of R&D money put into the Camaro as a whole.

I believe that GM is giving the "wait and see" approach. If the decline in car sales (as opposed to SUV/CUV), and more specifically, pony car sales continues, they may abandon the Camaro nameplate. If the demand levels off, they they may ramp up a team to develop a Gen7 Camaro on the VSS-R platform.

But this delay, gives them the flexibility to commit resources to more important projects, and the future will clairify the justificaiton of a 7th Gen Camaro one way or another. Seems like a smart move from a business perspective.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
I enjoy your posts Doc, but there is no BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Alfa Romeo that will compete with a $40K Camaro in terms of driving fun and performance. At current real prices, 40K gets you a 2SS Camaro with 455HP and lots of interior goodies. 40K in those other cars might get you a decent interior, but nowhere near 455 HP. Camaro/Mustang/Challenger aren't designed to compete with the luxury names of the word in both interior material quality, and performance, nor should they ever be.
what you're forgetting though, is that the performance chops don't sell ther Camaro.

Ford put out ther BOSS mustang to have a big performance model (that wasn't a Shelby) and where'd it go? It didn't stick strong because performance eas not ther buyers' main priority.
Yet here GM is trying to put out a car that outperforms everything and is a better value than those "big names"
That's great for us, boy those buyers want their luxury and their usability too.
GM missed the market. We need more than just performance in a daily driver..... otherwise, we'd buy the Corvette
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Old 06-26-2019, 05:13 PM   #46
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+1 This seems to be the logical choice and smart business to push aside going into the AlphaII platform. I would like more trunk space as well as visibility being better. Also, having newer power plant option with all gas or a combination of gas/electric. But being able to be affordable to mainstream buyers and not in the echelon of the mid engine Corvette.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I am not sure why you are thinking that the same flaws of the Gen6 would be present on an AlphaII platform. If you take a look at the CTS and compare it to a CT5 (which went from an Alpha to AlphaII platform), you will see a taller roofline and a shorter beltine giving it better visibility. I would assume that if there was going to be a 7thGen based off of AlphaII, it would/could have fixed the visibility issue. And I'm pretty sure that the AlphaII could support a larger trunk opening. As far as the rear seats, the CT5 has roomy rear seats, so I think Chevy was going to fix these issues with the AlphaII based Gen7.

Personnaly, I think it's more of the CAFE requirements that are pushing things back. I also think the Camaro may skip the AlphaII altogether and be delayed for the VSS-R platform (or vehicle set, if you will). The VSS-R is supposed to underpin all GM RWD/RWD based AWD, longitudinal vehicles. Which would include Camaro, if there will be one.

This delay gives time to develop the new platform, gives time for the C8 to roll out more powertrains that can be borrowed, and frees up resources to work on this big transition to electric/electric-assisted vehicles. Also, why put the Camaro on the AlphaII platform, when all GM vehicles will go to four platfoms in the pretty near future. Why not skip the AlphaII and go straight to the VSS-R? That also reduces the amount of R&D money put into the Camaro as a whole.

I believe that GM is giving the "wait and see" approach. If the decline in car sales (as opposed to SUV/CUV), and more specifically, pony car sales continues, they may abandon the Camaro nameplate. If the demand levels off, they they may ramp up a team to develop a Gen7 Camaro on the VSS-R platform.

But this delay, gives them the flexibility to commit resources to more important projects, and the future will clairify the justificaiton of a 7th Gen Camaro one way or another. Seems like a smart move from a business perspective.
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Old 06-26-2019, 05:26 PM   #47
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Doesn't matter to me either way, because I plan to keep my last Camaro ZL1 and my last new car. Getting too old to keep up with the changing technology and cost of new cars. It's up to the rest of you to carry on.
This !!
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Old 06-26-2019, 05:42 PM   #48
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I just wanna see that convertible Cuda that was supposed to be in development. Not that I'd buy one, but it will be a new player in the market.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:02 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Road_Warrior85 View Post
what you're forgetting though, is that the performance chops don't sell ther Camaro.

Ford put out ther BOSS mustang to have a big performance model (that wasn't a Shelby) and where'd it go? It didn't stick strong because performance eas not ther buyers' main priority.
Yet here GM is trying to put out a car that outperforms everything and is a better value than those "big names"
That's great for us, boy those buyers want their luxury and their usability too.
GM missed the market. We need more than just performance in a daily driver..... otherwise, we'd buy the Corvette

Ford never had any intention of building more than 4000 2012 and 4000 2013 Boss 302 Mustangs. That is what they said they would build, and that is how many they built. It wasn't a matter of "sticking strong". The Boss 302 was like the 2014-15 Z/28, special engine, suspension, interior, etc., except Ford made it clear up front that they were only building 8000 total over two years, and they stuck to that number.



There are no limits on GT500 production and that is why there are more of those around.



When the 2019 Bullitt Mustang was announced, Ford learned from the Boss 302 and said the Bullitt was a "Limited Edition". It was: it was limited to the people who threw down the cash to buy one! The only limit was that the dash plaque only went up to 9999. It is said that they sold over 9000 of them for 2019, so they are selling them in 2020 again. "Limited" to 9999, of course, not that they will find 9999 buyers.



Because Ford comes right out and says some Mustangs are "Limited", they get markups when new, and the resale is better for owners later. 2019 and 2020 Bullitts will be worth more than 2019 and 2020 SS 1LEs, because Ford plays a great marketing game. GM could learn from Ford.



One thing Ford does that is smart is that their "Limited" models have unique VIN codes. This helps protect owners far down the line from the market being ruined by counterfeit cars. A 1LE is just an option code, a Boss 302 was a different model code altogether.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:37 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
I enjoy your posts Doc, but there is no BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, Alfa Romeo that will compete with a $40K Camaro in terms of driving fun and performance. At current real prices, 40K gets you a 2SS Camaro with 455HP and lots of interior goodies. 40K in those other cars might get you a decent interior, but nowhere near 455 HP. Camaro/Mustang/Challenger aren't designed to compete with the luxury names of the word in both interior material quality, and performance, nor should they ever be.
Thank you, but on this post you missed the point. It isn't just about performance. The demographic you reach once you go past $40k is a different market than the fanboy/muscle car/performance crowd. They have different desires, expectations and perceptions of why they buy a car. The problem is/was, that the demographic that wants the Camaro isn't the $40k+ crowd. The crowd that wants the Camaro just doesn't want nor can likely afford a $600+ a month car payment, and that's for a 72 month loan not including insurance. The car was priced too high for the crowd that wanted it, and didn't have what it needed for the market it was priced at.

The people that can afford prices above $40k want more than just performance. Looks, interior design including materials, usability and status matter a lot to that crowd. They make snap judgments because they can; they don't have to agonize over price. If they look at the Camaro and it looks cramped, then it is... whether it really is inside or not. They won't even bother to open the door and sit inside. You have a couple of seconds to grab their attention; which starts with looks. After that, they get very selective about things, which starts with the interior. The test drive is about the last thing they look at; almost the opposite of the muscle car/performance crowd who just wants to drive it.

It's just a different demographic, and unfortunately the Camaro didn't have what it needed to grab them.

Now that prices are dropping on the Camaros that are on the lot, the market that wanted them all along is starting to buy; for them, it was price all along. I'm starting to see them around town now, where before it was six months after they came out before I saw a single 6th gen.

The Camaro could still be a winner; it just needs a completely new body and interior, but clearly GM has no intention of bothering with it. The Camaro was just a line item on a spreadsheet for them.
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Old 06-26-2019, 07:33 PM   #51
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Enjoying the banter fellas.

6th Gen will just have a longer run and prior to 2019 our cars looked futuristic to carry us through the next 10 years. If the 2023/2024 7th Gen comes to be, terrific!
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:02 PM   #52
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It's possible that with the large amount of investing Mary is doing with the EV side of things, that they had to postpone spending on the 7th gen for a bit?
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:06 PM   #53
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Ok letís be clear. There is NO difference between cancelled and indefinitely delayed. In every sense they mean the same thing unless you hang on the word delayed.......and ignore indefinitely.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:10 PM   #54
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GM said it is Shelved,
GM did not say that. Someone who knows someone, who claim sources said that. Hell, I could claim I have sources. It was easy click bait and sadly a few major outlets ran the story. GM wouldnt even publicly admit to mid engine Vette until just very recently, long after plenty of spy pics made the rounds.

The long and short of this, is...the Camaro outsells its platform mates combined by a large margin. Going alone on Alpha.2 and production at Grand River, the CT4/5 are the ones that wouldn't have made it. In 2002, the Camaro was on a niche chassis with no other chassis options, it was made in Canada and the F car chassis did not meet new 2003 crash regulations for the roof. Its slow sales was the final nail, it had nowhere to go but dead. Fast forward to 2019, even at its slow sales pace, it the best selling, most recognizable nameplate on a state of the art chassis. Why would GM bail on that. Thats just not logical.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:31 PM   #55
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GM did not say that. Someone who knows someone, who claim sources said that. Hell, I could claim I have sources. It was easy click bait and sadly a few major outlets ran the story. GM wouldnt even publicly admit to mid engine Vette until just very recently, long after plenty of spy pics made the rounds.

The long and short of this, is...the Camaro outsells its platform mates combined by a large margin. Going alone on Alpha.2 and production at Grand River, the CT4/5 are the ones that wouldn't have made it. In 2002, the Camaro was on a niche chassis with no other chassis options, it was made in Canada and the F car chassis did not meet new 2003 crash regulations for the roof. Its slow sales was the final nail, it had nowhere to go but dead. Fast forward to 2019, even at its slow sales pace, it the best selling, most recognizable nameplate on a state of the art chassis. Why would GM bail on that. Thats just not logical.
Yes, what you say is GM can simply run out production of the current car until it no longer meets emissions or safest requirements. Boy that sounds familiar.

The issue is will GM commit $500,000,000 give or take to do a Gen7 or will they elect to invest that elsewhere?

Iíll be an optimist and suggest GM is debating how the Camaro can be a flagship for future sporty/performance cars. A paradigm shift that may have little to do with Alpha1 or 2 or even 3.

As I always suggest, time will tell.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:40 PM   #56
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Ok letís be clear. There is NO difference between cancelled and indefinitely delayed. In every sense they mean the same thing unless you hang on the word delayed.......and ignore indefinitely.
Exactly. Same as "until further notice". Corporate speak for cancelled, but yet some insist on clinging.
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