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Old 03-11-2019, 01:09 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
My concept doesn't look like a sports car because it's not supposed to. It's a pony car, not a sports car (hence the title of the thread).

In addition to what you are calling "evolved", they've also evolved sales down to a level undreamt of too. In fact, unless we start seeing camo models on the roads, the 6th gen may be the last generation of Camaro as we know it. IF they decide to do a 7th gen (and unfortunately that's starting to look like a genuine "if"), it may very well be an electric or hybrid car which is possibly why Al O was moved over to the EV division.

My concept proposes a pony car again; fun, sporty, affordable. It could even work as an electric or hybrid. I'm aiming at the 98% of the market that doesn't care about racing and will never go to the track, and doesn't want a $700+ a month car payment for a third car for the family.

For Norm: Here's a shot with just the lower area as you suggested, except instead of black, I put white on there which actually doesn't look too bad. In the 60's that white side panel would probably have been aluminum.

Attachment 978037
What you are trying to do is kinda the same thing that Cadillac wanted to do with the Catera ,remember " Caddy that zigs" ? It didn't go well at all . I don't see in any way Camaro going backwards towards the car you are talking about , it just won't happen and makes no sense . I would bet money the next gen Camaro will have a hybrid version available and it will be lighter and faster , not cheaper and more room for luggage and family of 6, plenty of those out there now .
How about leaving the design you have now alone and start another . One that is not built around the rear seat passengers and a trunk filled with luggage . Look at some of the concept cars from GM the last 5 years or longer and build from that .
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:59 PM   #184
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Yeah? Guess which car is outselling the Camaro. If you can do more than look at pictures, and you read what I've posted in this thread, guess who my concept is aimed at? (Hint: It isn't you). If a parent is looking at buying a car for their high school or college student, which car do you think would appeal to them? The Camaro YOU like at $40k+ or my concept at $24,990? Which one would sell more? Which one would bring more money into GM so they'd keep the Camaro alive? Which posts are trying to help them; mine or yours?



Attachment 978108

Attachment 978109

Attachment 978110

Attachment 978111



I realize that these two cars look so much alike it would confuse the crap out of you, but look at them on something besides a phone. Norm and others "get it"... why can't you?

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Old 03-11-2019, 03:00 PM   #185
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What you are trying to do is kinda the same thing that Cadillac wanted to do with the Catera ,remember " Caddy that zigs" ? It didn't go well at all . I don't see in any way Camaro going backwards towards the car you are talking about , it just won't happen and makes no sense . I would bet money the next gen Camaro will have a hybrid version available and it will be lighter and faster , not cheaper and more room for luggage and family of 6, plenty of those out there now .
How about leaving the design you have now alone and start another . One that is not built around the rear seat passengers and a trunk filled with luggage . Look at some of the concept cars from GM the last 5 years or longer and build from that .
The problem with the Catera was it was the wrong car, from the wrong company, aimed at the wrong market. It was also bland and boring as hell.

Name:  Catera 1.jpeg
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Name:  Catera 2.jpeg
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How many teens or young 20's dream of driving a Cadillac? Nobody. A Cadillac is a something 'old people' drive, and even they didn't want that car.

I agree, there's no way Chevy is going to reintroduce/reinvent the pony car. They don't have that kind of vision. It's far more likely to come from China, South Korea, or maybe Mazda.

If GM is planning on keeping the Camaro, you're right; it will be a hybrid and be more expensive than what they already have, which as we all know, is just selling SO well. GM is falling behind because that's where they choose to be. They follow, they don't lead anymore.

I could start a new design, forgetting about the rear seat and luggage, but they already have that. It's called a Corvette. It has about the same sales numbers as the Camaro now has too. Same price range.

I've spent some time looking at all the concept cars from everyone, not just GM. All the designers are trying to do pretty much the same thing, and their designs tend to look a lot alike. Trying to be more extreme than the other guy, trying to add more gills, fangs, making cars that are impossibly low and would never work on the street, ridiculously large wheels and cabins that would require you to be a gymnast to get in and out of, and so on. None of it looks welcoming, inviting, desirable to buy and own. SUVs sell because they are easy to get in and out of, you can carry stuff including people comfortably, and you can see out of them. The reason why the Dodge is outselling the Camaro is due to those same reasons; it's better at those than the Camaro is.

The Camaro (and pony cars in general) were originally passenger cars. The farther American manufacturers get away from that function, the fewer they sell. They don't get it, nor do I think they will. They're going to get all distracted by going "green" and making EV's, which aren't green at all. But you can't say that because that isn't politically correct; how dare you question the deciders of everyone else's opinion!

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I may just join a Mazda forum and start proposing a Mazda pony car. I bet I'd get a completely different reaction. They might even entertain the idea. Here's where THEIR designers are going concept-wise:

Name:  Mazda Vision Concept.jpeg
Views: 114
Size:  101.3 KB

Makes this look downright silly by comparison:

Name:  2019 Refresh.jpeg
Views: 116
Size:  390.6 KB

If Mazda comes out with that car and sells it between $30k-$40k, do you think they'd sell more of those than GM sells Camaros? I'm betting yes. If Mazda can design something like that, why can't GM's design studio do that?
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:03 PM   #186
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S-H-I-T

It doesn't matter how upset you become or how many characters you write. The rendering is shit and does not have a non-zero chance of ever becoming a reality. But if you want to dream on, feel free.


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The rendering is fine. The only thing that is S-H-I-T and of even less value, is your opinion. Nothing positive, nothing constructive. Absolutely no value whatsoever. If that's all you've got to offer, don't bother.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:21 PM   #187
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The rendering is fine. The only thing that is S-H-I-T and of even less value, is your opinion. Nothing positive, nothing constructive. Absolutely no value whatsoever. If that's all you've got to offer, don't bother.
No one here would disagree with your premise, which is that we want to see the Camaro live. I don't think anyone at GM would disagree with it either.

However, everything from there is what causes impassioned folks, like yourself, to become upset. The fact of the matter is the days of $20K performance machines are gone. When we account for inflation even those cars that were purchased in the 80s would equate to what a new Camaro costs now. The Camaro, as well as the Corvette, are niche market cars and will remain as such. Sure, GM can lessen them to make them more affordable, but that would be the antithesis of everything we've been asking for (lightness, power, etc.).

Sales are only one indicator of whether a car will continue to the next generation while there are several external factors at play. We look at sales as the only indicator, but it's one of many key performance indicators. Better selling cars than the Camaro have met their fate, while others have continued. You see this thread as reaching out to GM to tug at their heartstrings, which is admirable and most folks here want the same thing, but what you are suggesting would further fragment the customer base and not coalesce it. To do what you are suggesting would require GM to pull the string on the Camaro, let it miss the equivalent of a generation or two, then reintroduced at a new/lower price point and "pony" car pedigree.

As a millennial, and as a younger person, I don't want that shit in the rendering. I call it what it is. I don't care what the price point is, if that were my option, I'd pass in favor of something else. I'm sure my uncle would disagree, and he'd love it, based on the styling. But for me, it does nothing. And this is an example of what I mean by alienating the two bases GM should be seeking to bring together. If GM is seeking to bring in younger folks, they're going to have to continue down the path they went for the 6th gen even if it means alienating some of the faithful contingent. At best, we can hope of a lower end stripped down version for the college kids, but even that isn't going to be some $10-$15K price reduction.

While Mazda produced a nice looking concept, as most companies do, it is a zero percent chance that is the model that comes to market. And when it does come to market in 2025, would it be a fair comparison to a 2019 production Camaro?

Last edited by ecko04; 03-11-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:54 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
The problem with the Catera was it was the wrong car, from the wrong company, aimed at the wrong market. It was also bland and boring as hell.

Attachment 978130
Attachment 978131

How many teens or young 20's dream of driving a Cadillac? Nobody. A Cadillac is a something 'old people' drive, and even they didn't want that car.

I agree, there's no way Chevy is going to reintroduce/reinvent the pony car. They don't have that kind of vision. It's far more likely to come from China, South Korea, or maybe Mazda.

If GM is planning on keeping the Camaro, you're right; it will be a hybrid and be more expensive than what they already have, which as we all know, is just selling SO well. GM is falling behind because that's where they choose to be. They follow, they don't lead anymore.

I could start a new design, forgetting about the rear seat and luggage, but they already have that. It's called a Corvette. It has about the same sales numbers as the Camaro now has too. Same price range.

I've spent some time looking at all the concept cars from everyone, not just GM. All the designers are trying to do pretty much the same thing, and their designs tend to look a lot alike. Trying to be more extreme than the other guy, trying to add more gills, fangs, making cars that are impossibly low and would never work on the street, ridiculously large wheels and cabins that would require you to be a gymnast to get in and out of, and so on. None of it looks welcoming, inviting, desirable to buy and own. SUVs sell because they are easy to get in and out of, you can carry stuff including people comfortably, and you can see out of them. The reason why the Dodge is outselling the Camaro is due to those same reasons; it's better at those than the Camaro is.

The Camaro (and pony cars in general) were originally passenger cars. The farther American manufacturers get away from that function, the fewer they sell. They don't get it, nor do I think they will. They're going to get all distracted by going "green" and making EV's, which aren't green at all. But you can't say that because that isn't politically correct; how dare you question the deciders of everyone else's opinion!

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I may just join a Mazda forum and start proposing a Mazda pony car. I bet I'd get a completely different reaction. They might even entertain the idea. Here's where THEIR designers are going concept-wise:

Attachment 978132

Makes this look downright silly by comparison:

Attachment 978134

If Mazda comes out with that car and sells it between $30k-$40k, do you think they'd sell more of those than GM sells Camaros? I'm betting yes. If Mazda can design something like that, why can't GM's design studio do that?
That Mazda looks like their 2018 concept car that was called the Vision Coupe and would have the same level of performance as the Camaro turbo 4 . But what you are saying about looks is the point I'm trying to make about your concept .The next generation Camaro will have to look the part and unfortunately yours don't come close . I don't think the 6th gen Camaros are aggressive looking enough in the front end at all , actually the newer Toyota Camry SE has a more aggressive front end, but no real performance at all . I do like the new front end of the refresh especially in person , i seen one driving towards me the other day and it took a second to realize what it was. I think they will do well .
Have you seen the Chevy FNR concept ? I been thinking now that Al O moved to the EV program that may just be the next Camaro . Don't forget the Corvette won't be the same after the mid engine and a slot could open that the Camaro can fit nicely into , and with the 6th gen Camaro it won't have far to go .
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:07 PM   #189
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That Mazda looks like their 2018 concept car that was called the Vision Coupe and would have the same level of performance as the Camaro turbo 4 . But what you are saying about looks is the point I'm trying to make about your concept .The next generation Camaro will have to look the part and unfortunately yours don't come close . I don't think the 6th gen Camaros are aggressive looking enough in the front end at all , actually the newer Toyota Camry SE has a more aggressive front end, but no real performance at all . I do like the new front end of the refresh especially in person , i seen one driving towards me the other day and it took a second to realize what it was. I think they will do well .
Have you seen the Chevy FNR concept ? I been thinking now that Al O moved to the EV program that may just be the next Camaro . Don't forget the Corvette won't be the same after the mid engine and a slot could open that the Camaro can fit nicely into , and with the 6th gen Camaro it won't have far to go .
Yes that's the Vision Coupe.

If what you think is a good look is the Camry SE, then we're on complete opposite sides of the fence as to what is desirable.

Name:  2018 Camry SE.jpeg
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Size:  37.9 KB

If that's the direction Chevy goes with the Camaro, I'll never buy another one again. As for the FNR Concept... you actually like this and think this is the direction they'll take the Camaro??

Name:  FNR Concept.jpeg
Views: 97
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Well we don't really know what the plan is for the Corvette; if the mid-engine is going to replace the front engine model, or be a new upscale version in addition to the front engine one.

Taking the Camaro in the direction you're proposing doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see why Chevy would want to create a direct competitor to their own sports car.

There's a profound difference between what the crowd that wants "aggressive" looking wants, who are a small market, and what the 98% want which is by far the more profitable market to be in. My concept is not aimed at you or those like you. I don't think I'd even be able to design what you and those like you want because I hate that kind of "aggressive" look; it's not in me to think along those lines.

Unfortunately the Camaro has already become a niche car. That's fine for those that want it, and if GM were set up to create and market niche cars, that would be fine too but they aren't. The only car they have that fits that description is the Corvette which has a long-established and loyal customer base. The Camaro used to have that, but Chevy has evolved the car out of their price range.

About the only thing I'm reasonably confident I can predict is this: nothing is going to change. The only thing keeping GM alive is the SUV/truck market, and when that saturates, and it will, they're going to be in a world of hurt. Not seeing any next gen camo covered Camaros on the road is worrying. Whatever is or might be coming, it won't be happening anytime soon.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:49 PM   #190
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Yes that's the Vision Coupe.

If what you think is a good look is the Camry SE, then we're on complete opposite sides of the fence as to what is desirable.

Attachment 978136

If that's the direction Chevy goes with the Camaro, I'll never buy another one again. As for the FNR Concept... you actually like this and think this is the direction they'll take the Camaro??

Attachment 978137

Well we don't really know what the plan is for the Corvette; if the mid-engine is going to replace the front engine model, or be a new upscale version in addition to the front engine one.

Taking the Camaro in the direction you're proposing doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see why Chevy would want to create a direct competitor to their own sports car.

There's a profound difference between what the crowd that wants "aggressive" looking wants, who are a small market, and what the 98% want which is by far the more profitable market to be in. My concept is not aimed at you or those like you. I don't think I'd even be able to design what you and those like you want because I hate that kind of "aggressive" look; it's not in me to think along those lines.

Unfortunately the Camaro has already become a niche car. That's fine for those that want it, and if GM were set up to create and market niche cars, that would be fine too but they aren't. The only car they have that fits that description is the Corvette which has a long-established and loyal customer base. The Camaro used to have that, but Chevy has evolved the car out of their price range.

About the only thing I'm reasonably confident I can predict is this: nothing is going to change. The only thing keeping GM alive is the SUV/truck market, and when that saturates, and it will, they're going to be in a world of hurt. Not seeing any next gen camo covered Camaros on the road is worrying. Whatever is or might be coming, it won't be happening anytime soon.
I think the Camry SE has a very aggressive front end, overall its a box that moves people around . As far as the concept FNR goes i think parts of it will be used in the future Camaro , has a great front end that would work nicely . There are actual photos of the FNR that shows it much better .The Camaro also has a very loyal fan base and a lot of them didn't like the 5th gen and it shown in sales being that 65 % of the buyers were first time Camaro owners .With the 6th gen Camaro you are now actually seeing buyers cross over from Corvette and Porsche more then ever before , and admitting to it . That says a lot about the differences in the last two generations. I really think the Camaro designers have been very lazy overall with the last two generations . The next gen will have to be something we never seen before . We are a long way off from seeing anything from the next gen in camo , my guess would be early 2020 with a 2021 release. One thing i have been noticing talking to people about the Mid engine is that it will have an uphill battle winning over the true die hard Corvette loyal. Same with the Supra diehards saying it's not really a Supra .
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:28 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
The problem with the Catera was it was the wrong car, from the wrong company, aimed at the wrong market. It was also bland and boring as hell.

Attachment 978130
Attachment 978131

How many teens or young 20's dream of driving a Cadillac? Nobody. A Cadillac is a something 'old people' drive, and even they didn't want that car.

I agree, there's no way Chevy is going to reintroduce/reinvent the pony car. They don't have that kind of vision. It's far more likely to come from China, South Korea, or maybe Mazda.

If GM is planning on keeping the Camaro, you're right; it will be a hybrid and be more expensive than what they already have, which as we all know, is just selling SO well. GM is falling behind because that's where they choose to be. They follow, they don't lead anymore.

I could start a new design, forgetting about the rear seat and luggage, but they already have that. It's called a Corvette. It has about the same sales numbers as the Camaro now has too. Same price range.

I've spent some time looking at all the concept cars from everyone, not just GM. All the designers are trying to do pretty much the same thing, and their designs tend to look a lot alike. Trying to be more extreme than the other guy, trying to add more gills, fangs, making cars that are impossibly low and would never work on the street, ridiculously large wheels and cabins that would require you to be a gymnast to get in and out of, and so on. None of it looks welcoming, inviting, desirable to buy and own. SUVs sell because they are easy to get in and out of, you can carry stuff including people comfortably, and you can see out of them. The reason why the Dodge is outselling the Camaro is due to those same reasons; it's better at those than the Camaro is.

The Camaro (and pony cars in general) were originally passenger cars. The farther American manufacturers get away from that function, the fewer they sell. They don't get it, nor do I think they will. They're going to get all distracted by going "green" and making EV's, which aren't green at all. But you can't say that because that isn't politically correct; how dare you question the deciders of everyone else's opinion!

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I may just join a Mazda forum and start proposing a Mazda pony car. I bet I'd get a completely different reaction. They might even entertain the idea. Here's where THEIR designers are going concept-wise:

Attachment 978132

Makes this look downright silly by comparison:

Attachment 978134

If Mazda comes out with that car and sells it between $30k-$40k, do you think they'd sell more of those than GM sells Camaros? I'm betting yes. If Mazda can design something like that, why can't GM's design studio do that?
actually was looking at a 2 door honda accord for the wife last month.it was a sportier and nicer car than i had imagined,in fact it would give any camaro other than an SS or ZL-1 a lot of trouble.before you laugh and call me a heretic look at the sportier version with leather interior and fancier wheels.unless youve made up your mind to hate it youll be impressed.i believe the accords,civics,and FRZ/BRZ are stealing away camaro sales among the younger generation and that is the demographic chevy needs to address.
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Old 03-11-2019, 08:52 PM   #192
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I've been saying for a couple years now that with the introduction of a mid-engine Corvette, the Camaro lineup will be able to advance in performance, technology, and cost. I hope it does because it would result in a more viable business case for a vehicle that sells fewer than 4,000 units per month.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:39 PM   #193
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No one here would disagree with your premise, which is that we want to see the Camaro live. I don't think anyone at GM would disagree with it either.

However, everything from there is what causes impassioned folks, like yourself, to become upset. The fact of the matter is the days of $20K performance machines are gone. When we account for inflation even those cars that were purchased in the 80s would equate to what a new Camaro costs now. The Camaro, as well as the Corvette, are niche market cars and will remain as such. Sure, GM can lessen them to make them more affordable, but that would be the antithesis of everything we've been asking for (lightness, power, etc.).

Sales are only one indicator of whether a car will continue to the next generation while there are several external factors at play. We look at sales as the only indicator, but it's one of many key performance indicators. Better selling cars than the Camaro have met their fate, while others have continued. You see this thread as reaching out to GM to tug at their heartstrings, which is admirable and most folks here want the same thing, but what you are suggesting would further fragment the customer base and not coalesce it. To do what you are suggesting would require GM to pull the string on the Camaro, let it miss the equivalent of a generation or two, then reintroduced at a new/lower price point and "pony" car pedigree.

As a millennial, and as a younger person, I don't want that shit in the rendering. I call it what it is. I don't care what the price point is, if that were my option, I'd pass in favor of something else. I'm sure my uncle would disagree, and he'd love it, based on the styling. But for me, it does nothing. And this is an example of what I mean by alienating the two bases GM should be seeking to bring together. If GM is seeking to bring in younger folks, they're going to have to continue down the path they went for the 6th gen even if it means alienating some of the faithful contingent. At best, we can hope of a lower end stripped down version for the college kids, but even that isn't going to be some $10-$15K price reduction.

While Mazda produced a nice looking concept, as most companies do, it is a zero percent chance that is the model that comes to market. And when it does come to market in 2025, would it be a fair comparison to a 2019 production Camaro?
You're making the mistake of thinking of yourself and what you want, which is not what this thread is about. I've been advocating them to reinvent the pony car as an ADD to the Camaro. I've always suggested they keep the 'lettered' cars (RS, SS, LE, etc.) as the more expensive high performance cars, and ADD a reinvented pony car as a model for everyone else. It's not proposed as a $20k performance machine; it's proposed as a $25k passenger car that looks sporty, which is what a pony car was. They can call it a Chevelle, Corvair, Panther, whatever. They need to diversify beyond SUV's and trucks so when that market saturates and begins to cool, they have revenue coming in to keep afloat. It's the models and model lines that you or I would never buy that keep the revenue coming in, so they can build the cars that you and I WOULD actually buy.

Sales are more than just an "indicator"; they are the reason why a model, model line, or even an entire division exists or not. If sales aren't enough to keep a production line running, lay-offs begin to happen and if it continues, entire plants are shut down. That's not just a threat; it's happening right now.

The problem with going down the path GM went for the 6th gen, is it's a dwindling path. The manufacturing model for the Camaro is for WAY more than a couple thousand unit sales a month. It isn't set up for low production volumes. The Corvette is which is why they can continue to produce them profitably. Unless they want to change their production model (which is entirely possible) the way things are right now indicates they're in trouble with the Camaro. The only reason it began to sell last year when they had 4 months of inventory sitting on the lots, was they started offering big discounts. How do they reconcile that? How do they keep making a car that doesn't sell unless they offer deep discounts? Either they lower the price to those levels to begin with and re-engineer it so they can sell it at those points and be profitable, or come up with a style and look so desirable, that the people who can spend the higher amounts decide to buy. That market is out there, they just aren't buying the Camaro. They're buying BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc.

Did you know that the Mazda Vision wasn't merely an empty show car shell? It was a fully functional car. Production ready? No, but I wouldn't under-estimate Mazda.

While GM and Ford have been obsessed with SUV's and trucks the past few years, the Asian manufacturers have quietly been moving in and taking over the territory that GM and Ford used to own; passenger cars. The Asian offerings are getting better and better, and the designs and styles are improving too. The ONLY thing still in favor of American cars, and performance cars in particular, is the V8. It's been their ace-in-the-hole for over half a century, but the new turbo technology in 4's and 6's is getting remarkably good. I have a 2017 turbo 4 Alfa Romeo Giulia and it's surprising how good it is. The Alfa Romeo Quadrifoglio with its Ferrari-derived turbo 6 is a stunner. Small displacement turbo engines aren't supposed to perform like that; but they do now. The V8 is starting to have some real competition.

Chevy can keep the Camaro as a track car, but they really should take another look at a model for the street without all the expensive track features. If they don't, the Camaro will become just another niche car that sells 2,500 a month; a 4 seat Corvette basically. Not that that's a bad thing, but it isn't what the Camaro was originally intended to be.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:16 AM   #194
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Autonomous cars and the rental economy are a product of unending greed of the generation in power, not the generation too poor to afford owning anything.

Both aspects of the general direction cars are going right now are primarily coming to be because the tech has caught up to the desire to ensure people have to subscribe to cars and to retain control over that property to better control the flow of those subscriptions.

There is no point in being anti-ev though. Electric motors are massively more efficient and easier to maintain that ice engines. Tying that to self driving and the non existent middle class is where things go wrong. It's a fast track to no human drivers and no personal ownership... Meaning no control over your own ability to travel.

All that to say,. Embrace the new... There is good potential there and it is more viable than being constrained by big bulky internal combustion engines. Keep it 6th gen, reduce waistline by not needing a tall engine, open up the trunk, remove the rear seats, make the factory drive train underpowered and cheap. The aftermarket will make it popular to those who can now afford it. Basically, to sell more, they need to make it perform as bad as it did in to 80's, but with the potential to be built like it is now. And yes, it needs to ditch the 6 liter engine. Maybe a 4 liter v8 would still fit, eventually to be replaced by a crazy electric.

Last edited by cellsafemode; 03-12-2019 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:26 AM   #195
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Doc, do yourself a favor and don't try to argue with the haters. I really like your work. I think it pretty much fits your idea of a basic simple pony car, not a high performance car that looks like a pissed off transformers. As you know I was sceptical at first, but you really improved greatly which each update.



I actually don't get why the mods are not going after the trolls. They really ruin the fun for the people that actually deliver content to the forum
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:41 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
To me, that's a modern-day re-interpretation of the "surface excitement" design style that a generation or so ago also tended to be "overdone". Mainly on cars of Japanese origin, so it's looking like a case of "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

The feeling that ↑↑↑ gives me is that the designer ran out of fresh ideas and went to the "outrageous for the sake of outrageousness" well.

I don't think even Chris Bangle with his flame-surfacing would have come up with that, and even that's gone past its "sell-by" date.


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