[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

At the end of the day, GM made a decision to not offer an MT. We can argue until the cows come home about why they made the decision. They’ve told us why they made the decision. Believe them or don’t. I was there when the decision was made, though not part of the decision making team. What Tadge and Ed are saying now is consistent with what they’ve said internally. Understand that there were multiple factors, not just a single factor, and most of them have come up here. Similar discussions took place internally and the decision still came out in favor of no MT.

Some here argue that the decision leaves15 - 20% of volume on the table (the 15-20% of cars that could have been sold as MT if there was one). But, at the end of the day, the plant is running at capacity, so they could not have produced 15 - 20% more cars with any transmission. If less than 100% of the cars are DCT, then the cost of the DCT likely goes up, making the car more expensive, as well as having to engineer, certify, and supply a low volume high cost MT.

So, if you’re GM, you haven’t lost any sales, you’re amortizing the cost of the DCT across 100% of your volume, not 85%, and you spent no money tooling up or certifying an MT. If you’re GM, you’re probably good with that.

We will need to revisit this when:

A) The plant is actually running at capacity and not shutting down due to parts supplies or CV-19 restrictions.

B) The luster of the newest gen Corvette has worn off (typically around the 3 MY), and the supply flips it's current position with demand.

Until then, they lost myself as a customer, plus many many more I have personally communicated with. If they make that up in other sales is not the question, they would have had those sales even while offering a manual.

[xc_SS/RS]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Precisely. I had a long post on the Corvette Forum more than a year ago describing exactly this.

Especially considering that I pay to own the car, pay for track time, and pay for all consumables...the absolute best way for ME to get the most out of my money invested, is to increase driver skill, which includes manually controlling the gear selection through a foot operated clutch, and a mechanical shift linkage to the transmission (cable, rod, direct). I do not attend events with any significant amount of cash prizes for winning, nor competitive lapping events - only timed...so absolute fastest lap times are not important to me. Improving my own lap times are, however.

BTW, a Z51 C7 M7 lapped quicker than a Z51 C8 DCT at the same track...can't remember the specific track, it was brought up on the Corvette Forum lengthy thread. I think we can all agree, the C7 driver likely had more skill in this scenario...still shows that manuals can be competitive in the right hands.

Thats interesting about the C7 lapping quicker, but you are probably right that the C7 driver had more skill or time on that track. I’d imagine it would be pretty close between both cars with the same driver on the same track.

I agree with you on the wanting the experience and feeling that you get when YOU accomplish the faster lap times via more seat time. Making the car more user friendly will likely net more sales, but you wont get gushing reviews about it like the new GT4 gets. Then it kind of gets the weird status of being a bit boring instead of being something you want to own.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by xc_SS/RS

Thats interesting about the C7 lapping quicker, but you are probably right that the C7 driver had more skill or time on that track. I’d imagine it would be pretty close between both cars with the same driver on the same track.

I agree with you on the wanting the experience and feeling that you get when YOU accomplish the faster lap times via more seat time. Making the car more user friendly will likely net more sales, but you wont get gushing reviews about it like the new GT4 gets. Then it kind of gets the weird status of being a bit boring instead of being something you want to own.

It's the same reason I would never own a GTR. Incredibly capable car...but anyone who is breathing can repeat the same drag strip time as I can. If I'm in the same car as another, I like there to be a driver skill advantage. Of course a track/road course is different, but as I said earlier, honing my own skills since I'm paying for every aspect of the experience is paramount to me...and I want as little computer intervention as possible.

Having said ALL that, I have put my money where my mouth is. I own two sports cars, neither have ABS, neither have traction control, both are manual transmissions. The next one may come with a bit more computer controlled suspension and brakes, that's as far as I'm willing to go.

[RagingHawk]

Mach E is an example of what EV market will look like for the coming decade. No manufacturers will be making EV sports cars any time soon. They will be CUV's that they call 'sports coupes' or 'hot hatches', if even. Meanwhile, gas prices may go up substantially leading up to 2030 and who knows how parts availability will be for those that want to secure an ICE sports cars before that time line. Your last chance is next generation(2022-2023) releases will likely be the last pure ICE sports cars available with a manual:

-7th gen Mustang
-6th gen Camaro if it stays till 2026 or 7th gen if it is a thing
-Nissan 400z
-Golf GTI/Golf R
-WRX/WRX STI
-Dodge Challenger
-Honda Civic SI/Type R
-Toyota Corolla GR
-BMW M2/M3/M4
-Veloster N
-Porsche Caymans/911s/Boxsters

Those will likely be the last ICE generation sports cars with manuals. Maybe they will become hybrids for one more generation after that without the stick. Gas prices will be high, sports don't sell well and are not profitable like the CUVS. Sports cars development will not be prioritized for awhile until manufacturers profit off EV CUV's and until the tech itself develops. It will be awhile till we get something like a 19,000 Corolla pure EV. You can go out today and get a lot of 20-22 thousand dollar cars with same range as their higher optioned trims. With EV, I doubt we will see low prices for awhile and if we do, they will cut the range big time as we already are seeing. A base trim will get you 150-200 miles at most, and you will have to move up to higher end trims to get 250-300 mile range. So subcompact or economical cars will not be a thing for awhile.

EV's will cost a lot, automakers will profit even more on them. EV folks like to say how costs will go down and less moving parts and so forth, while it is true battery costs will go down, prices will not go down much for at least until 2030/2035, and when they do, they will give us small batteries in those subcompact vehicles and want people to move up to higher profit loaded trims. EV Sports cars won't be good until at least 2035. There will be 6-figure luxury sedans but they are not sports cars nor affordable. ICE sports cars will get costlier to own, if gas prices go up and if there is some sort of carbon tax in the future. Government will go after tuners and aftermarket companies. It's gonna be a crappy next 15 years for car enthusiasts. You will have to get some 40,000 CUV with 200 miles range if you want a new car. And that's the so called 'base models' these automakers are coming out with. Whereas a base corolla will get you more range , dependability, and features for half the price.

[lbls1]

A sad day for the american automotive enthusiast. You mean to tell me that this is what I have to look forward to?

No imagination, no outward thought of style or grace expressed. This is just a rolling chamber with a computer screen and a tape player to emulate a v8 engine.

If this is the direction that we are going, then my days of patronage of american cars are numbered.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by lbls1

A sad day for the american automotive enthusiast. You mean to tell me that this is what I have to look forward to?

No imagination, no outward thought of style or grace expressed. This is just a rolling chamber with a computer screen and a tape player to emulate a v8 engine.

If this is the direction that we are going, then my days of patronage of american cars are numbered.

yep...

[90503]

There is one option to choose regarding EVs. Don't buy one. Right now they are a novelty and the infrastructure and charging availability is not overwhelmed. And there is no budget priced EV available.

I agree with the stats and the argument that most people don't drive more than 30, 50 miles tops per day. OK, fine. I will purchase and drive an EV that fills that bill, but only if the vehicle cost is in line with how it is used.

New EVs need to compete with used ICE beaters for transportation and minimal budget driving. Owners and buyers are capable of figuring out what works best for them.

They are missing out on the market for budget minded drivers who would be willing to go EV in lieu of ICE if the price is right. The EV industry is starting out in the wrong end of the spectrum with 100K plus models that need to be charged fewer times, but would likely be impractical for daily use.

EVs still have a long way to go to compete with and replace the convenience and economy of low-end ICE vehicles that are way more affordable.

It appears the strategy is to eliminate ICE production and drive-up the purchase price and cost of ownership and of any new or used ICE vehicle, thus forcing the purchase of highly expensive EVs for basic daily transportation. This is tyranny and should not be allowed.

Keep your ICE vehicles for as long as you can. Changing over to EV will not be cheap and once it is the only option....Hang on to your you-know-what, it's game over.

[90503]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

yep...

lol...

Here is how the new models in the years ahead will be marketed. Notice the yellow hooded teasers with no names yet. The excitement over the available choices in EVs will be under-whelming. The symbolism in this photo is endless.

Being able to drive your EV is only possible until someone turns off the switch. The more things change the more they stay the same...lol...but gosh, that instant torque feeling...lol

[xc_SS/RS]

Man that is depressing

Volvo is joining in with a total ban on ICE cars by 2030. Will the general get outdone?!

[NW-99SS]

I've said it before - battery production is the problem:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdo...h=44b4e18b650b

"There are 7.2 million battery EVs or about 1% of the total vehicle fleet today. To get an idea of the scale of mining for raw materials involved in replacing the world’s gasoline and diesel-fueled cars with EVs, we can take the example of the UK as provided by Michael Kelly, the Emeritus Prince Philip Professor of Technology at the University of Cambridge. According to Professor Kelly, if we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials: about twice the annual global production of cobalt; three quarters of the world’s production lithium carbonate; nearly the entire world production of neodymium; and more than half the world’s production of copper in 2018.

And this is just for the UK. Professor Kelly estimates that if we want the whole world to be transported by electric vehicles, the vast increases in the supply of the raw materials listed above would go far beyond known reserves. The environmental and social impact of vastly-expanded mining for these materials — some of which are highly toxic when mined, transported and processed – in countries afflicted by corruption and poor human rights records can only be imagined. The clean and green image of EVs stands in stark contrast to the realities of manufacturing batteries."

[SirJangle]

Curiosity got the best of us so the wife and I went and looked at/drove the new Mach-E this past Saturday. WOW... we were impressed! The styling inside and out was outstanding! The technology was impressive. The interior layout was perfect. The power/torque was immediate. Most "ever day" charging won't be a problem because, according to Ford, you can charge these with a regular household power outlet overnight and there will be ample power for your daily driving (work, grocery store, etc.) and there are many charging stations available should you be traveling long distances. Although, I do understand the challenges that those that live in apartments, etc. and don't have electricity available while parking will endure. I hate that they used the Mustang name for it too but I have to admit that Ford did an excellent job with the vehicle.

We drove the Premium model with the extended AWD batteries ($56K MSRP). If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me and I'll answer if I can as we asked lots of questions when there.

I'm not saying that I'd ever replace my Camaro with one but we may consider one when the lease on the wife's Infiniti QX50 is up this coming September. Knock it if you want but I've got to tell you, I was blown away. Tesla's market share is going to take a hit.

[1JEWLDSSRS]

I saw one of these at a recent local car show, it was displayed by our local Ford dealer and I gotta agree with the statement above, it is really a very nice looking vehicle in person, inside AND out!! Very well styled for sure. The pics on the internet just don't do it justice. I also agree that it shouldn't be called a Mustang, because it's not. Gotta say though, it is one nice looking vehicle...

[GearheadSS]

Saw one on the road yesterday. While I think it looks fine as a small SUV, it never should have had the Mustang name attached to it. Bravo to Ford for building it but they never should have called it a Mustang.

[RagingHawk]

Audi abandons combustion engine development

Audi has stopped the development of new combustion engines. In an interview, Audi CEO Markus Duesmann justified the decision with the EU plans for a stricter Euro 7 emissions standard.

In an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Duesmann said: “We will no longer develop a new combustion engine, but will adapt our existing combustion engines to new emission guidelines.” The plans for the Euro 7 standard are “technically a huge challenge with at the same time little benefit for the environment”. “This places extreme restrictions on the internal combustion engine,” Duesmann said.

Duesmann did not specify a date as to when Audi would sell the last new car with an internal combustion engine. Instead, the Audi CEO referred to regions of the world where energy supply and charging infrastructure are less well developed. For this reason, Audi will continue to sell combustion engines for many years to come, but will not develop a completely new generation of petrol or diesel engines.

Audi is thus on a similar path to its premium rival Mercedes. About a week ago, Markus Schäfer, the board member responsible for development at Mercedes, also confirmed that no new generation of internal combustion engines would be developed. Schäfer told the Handelsblatt that all development expenditure had been completed for the “FAME” engine family, which was launched in 2016. “This means that the bulk of the investments can now really go into electromobility,” Schäfer said.

Duesmann in Ingolstadt is planning to do the same. Audi wants to offer 20 electric models in five years. Duesmann hopes that the Q4 e-tron, based on the MEB from parent company Volkswagen, will reach new customer groups after the large electric SUV e-tron and the Taycan offshoot e-tron GT. The Q4 e-tron will be “affordable for many people and the entry into e-mobility at Audi”. “It will sell well and ensure significant unit sales,” Duesmann said. The Q4 e-tron will be built at VW in Zwickau.

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https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/16...e-development/