[Number 3]

Originally Posted by SteevK

SUVs also have the biggest profit margins - take a pickup truck chasis, throw in about $8K of standard equip, along with a long options list to add to the prices & profits. Make lots more money than on halo cars like Camaro & 'Vette.

Ford is cancelling most of their cars, to concentrate on small trucks.

ALSO, many people think they're safer in an SUV than a car - not true!

Historically Corvette made as much per unit as the trucks.

And where do you get you aren’t safer in an SUV? In the real world mass wins having crashed cars for a living is put my family in a Tahoe or Suburban any day over a lower weigh5 lower car. Small SUVs? Closer to a car in weight. But believe me, you are safer in a large SUV.

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Historically Corvette made as much per unit as the trucks.

And where do you get you aren’t safer in an SUV? In the real world mass wins having crashed cars for a living is put my family in a Tahoe or Suburban any day over a lower weigh5 lower car. Small SUVs? Closer to a car in weight. But believe me, you are safer in a large SUV.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Historically Corvette made as much per unit as the trucks.

And where do you get you aren’t safer in an SUV? In the real world mass wins having crashed cars for a living is put my family in a Tahoe or Suburban any day over a lower weigh5 lower car. Small SUVs? Closer to a car in weight. But believe me, you are safer in a large SUV.

Safer in a crash once it happens, sure. But more likely to be involved in certain kinds of crashes . . . those involving potential rollover or where maneuverability is the key to avoiding it in particular.


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Safer in a crash once it happens, sure. But more likely to be involved in certain kinds of crashes . . . those involving potential rollover or where maneuverability is the key to avoiding it in particular.


Norm

More likely to roll over? Maybe. But that isn’t a vehicle to vehicle or vehicle to object. In every one of this cases mass wins.

So if you would rather be less likely to roll over due to a higher CG than safer in almost every other real world crash I won’t argue the point.

Every Government frontal crash test assumes you are in an accident with a car of equal mass. Real world higher and heavier will win almost every time. Side impact? Higher is better. Space? You need as music has possible and bigger vehicles will almost always provide more survival space given structure that meets the other tests.

Yes there are roll overs but even then more survival space opis crucial.

Your point is sound for avoiding roll overs and even in some rare cases avoiding some frontal and side impact crashes.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Your point is sound for avoiding roll overs and even in some rare cases avoiding some frontal and side impact crashes.

That's the only point I was trying to make.


On the matter of 'likelihood', I'm quite content to stand on the last 48 years of my own driving plus another 48 of my wife's as direct evidence that the additional margins of safety in large SUVs can go completely unrecognized (that being a good thing).

That might even be good enough as statistical evidence to support the idea that neither of us will need to have large-SUV overall levels of safety in the foreseeable future either.


Norm

[DaveC113]

I thought body on frame trucks were not good for hitting immovable objects as they don't crumple like a unibody?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I thought body on frame trucks were not good for hitting immovable objects as they don't crumple like a unibody?

No, even the frame is designed to absorb energy in a crash. As I said, in the end, mass always wins in a crash.

When you see a frontal crash test into a wall, it assumes you are hitting a vehicle head on......going the same speed...……………..with the same mass. Essentially a crash with the same vehicle you are driving.

So you can see a 5 star 2,000 pound vehicle. Problem is if you are in that vehicle and get hit by a Suburban, the Suburban wins every single time.

Science

[V8 Firebird]

Originally Posted by samurai

Also have in mind that Dodge is not selling the car internationally.

Isn't FCA bringing back Dodge brand to EU recently? But, I guess Challenger has more sales challenge for itself by local heavy tax system in the outside markets. FCA hasn't offered 2.0 liter L4 engine for it.

[V8 Firebird]

Originally Posted by 90503

But...that market will be for a Cadillac, not a lowly Chevy....I believe GM will always favor Corvette and Cadillac....Chevy and Camaro will likely never get the up-scale interior appointments and other features needed for the hi-end sports coupe market. That is Cadillac territory.

Isn't Cadillac going to against Tesla in future?

Whatever, seems Caddy has given us the key about GM's coupe car.

[SteevK]

Originally Posted by fastball

The base price of an Iron Duke 4 speed Camaro without air conditioning was $8,000 in '84. That's obviously what the advertised price was in this commercial. A fully loaded 302 Z28 was closer to $13k, which is over $31k today.

Still not the $40k for a 2SS but still not THAT far behind, when adjusted for inflation. Besides, I'm sure most people got their 2SS for under $40k.

I think that was an '82 Camaro ad? (they killed the Iron Duke Camaro after a couple of years of bad sales/reviews) I bought a Z28 new in 1982 (my first new car - at 28). I ordered it as a carb'd 4-speed. Week after week I kept checking with the dealer, but he didn't help me. Finally - after I threatened to cancel the order - it turned out that they didn't have the parts for any 4-speeds, because the '83s got 5-speeds. So, I changed order to 3-speed auto - not knowing they were changing to 4-speed autos in '83. **

I believe I paid about $12,800 IIRC, and It was NOT loaded - power mirrors, int wipers, rear wiper/washer, 4-wheel disks, vinyl seats, crank windows, AM/FM cassete, etc. AND a 305 w/145 HP - and that was BHP, not RWHP! I realize you pay top dollar when ordering, rather than buying off the lot.

So, more than THREE TIMES the HP, lots more creature comforts, NPP, MRC, nav, sunroof, seat-mirror memory, blind-spot monitor, back-up camera, leather, heated/cooled seats, HUD, Bluetooth, iPod/iPhone/USB flash intf, ratchet shifter, shift paddles (or rev-match if you like manuals), automatic lights, drive modes, and looks to die for.

Well, '82 Z/28 Vs 2017-18 2SS - adjusted for inflation - the 2ss is a BARGAIN I liked my '82 (loved it in the beginning, but it wore off pretty fast) but I wouldn't want one now. I been spoiled

** Same thing happened to me with G37: I pre-ordered a 2008 and it took a while to get it - it was first model year, like my Z/28. BUT, I got the 5-speed auto, and they changed to 7-speed autos in 2009... 2019 SS gets 10-speed auto

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by SteevK

I think that was an '82 Camaro ad? (they killed the Iron Duke Camaro after a couple of years of bad sales/reviews) I bought a Z28 new in 1982 (my first new car - at 28). I ordered it as a carb'd 4-speed. Week after week I kept checking with the dealer, but he didn't help me. Finally - after I threatened to cancel the order - it turned out that they didn't have the parts for any 4-speeds, because the '83s got 5-speeds. So, I changed order to 3-speed auto - not knowing they were changing to 4-speed autos in '83. **

I believe I paid about $12,800 IIRC, and It was NOT loaded - power mirrors, int wipers, rear wiper/washer, 4-wheel disks, vinyl seats, crank windows, AM/FM cassete, etc. AND a 305 w/145 HP - and that was BHP, not RWHP! I realize you pay top dollar when ordering, rather than buying off the lot.

So, more than THREE TIMES the HP, lots more creature comforts, NPP, MRC, nav, sunroof, seat-mirror memory, blind-spot monitor, back-up camera, leather, heated/cooled seats, HUD, Bluetooth, iPod/iPhone/USB flash intf, ratchet shifter, shift paddles (or rev-match if you like manuals), automatic lights, drive modes, and looks to die for.

Well, '82 Z/28 Vs 2017-18 2SS - adjusted for inflation - the 2ss is a BARGAIN I liked my '82 (loved it in the beginning, but it wore off pretty fast) but I wouldn't want one now. I been spoiled

** Same thing happened to me with G37: I pre-ordered a 2008 and it took a while to get it - it was first model year, like my Z/28. BUT, I got the 5-speed auto, and they changed to 7-speed autos in 2009... 2019 SS gets 10-speed auto

I got my first Camaro in 1984. V8 sport coupe with T-Roof. I remember I paid $12,888 with title fee, tags, and tax. Loved that car, but by today's standards there is just no comparison. 0 to 60 in about 12 seconds and the ass end was all over the place on wet roads, forget about snow. BTW $12,800 then would be $33,000 today. Makes me appreciate my convertible that much more today.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

I got my first Camaro in 1984. V8 sport coupe with T-Roof. I remember I paid $12,888 with title fee, tags, and tax. Loved that car, but by today's standards there is just no comparison. 0 to 60 in about 12 seconds and the ass end was all over the place on wet roads, forget about snow. BTW $12,800 then would be $33,000 today. Makes me appreciate my convertible that much more today.

Good point here. I had an 85 Iroc Z with a punk 215hp but that car was awesome to drive. It delivered with it's 700r4 trans and handled extremely well for it's time. I think it was in the 15k price range at the time. It was a great value for the money. Then came the sluggish v6's with mushy suspension. That is one of GM's shortcomings, sluggish non performing lower cost cars thus the younger crowd migrated to Imports. GM needs some new design staff because sooner than later the government penalty for SUV's and Trucks will be too high.

[SteevK]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Good point here. I had an 85 Iroc Z with a punk 215hp but that car was awesome to drive. It delivered with it's 700r4 trans and handled extremely well for it's time. I think it was in the 15k price range at the time. It was a great value for the money. Then came the sluggish v6's with mushy suspension. That is one of GM's shortcomings, sluggish non performing lower cost cars thus the younger crowd migrated to Imports. GM needs some new design staff because sooner than later the government penalty for SUV's and Trucks will be too high.

'85 IROC, I had one of them, and a 1987. 215HP? must have been a 350? Both of mine were 305s. 85 was used - ran into a guy who said he used to own it, until it was TOTALED! He even ID'd a hidden cigarette burn...

Dealer wouldn't take it back, wasn't worth fighting them in court, so I traded in on '86 Buick GN - which got STOLEN (AFTER I had Rancho susp kit installed). waited 30 days and bought '87 IROC Demo. A couple weeks later, cops called to say they found my GN - wrapped around a pole in The Badlands. I had it towed to my apt, but ins co wouldn't let me buy the wreck, 'cause it was a theft. Tried all wkend to get cherry picker to get that motor & trans, for my IROC. I would have had a Turbo F-body 2 years before Pontiac 20th anniv pace car...

The '80s were not good to me

Got SO tired of Chevy cheating me on warranty service ("...well, when you have an ultra-HP car like this, you can't expect...") that, when Eclipse GSX came out I was ready for a change. Bought 4 of them (3 new - one was Eagle Talon, but same car underneath, and one used in 2002) Then G35, G37. 28 years of driving Japanese cars.

GM service seems to be better - at least at my local dealer

[SteevK]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I totally agree with you that any sports car is a WANT item, not a NEED item. What makes the target audience WANT the car is typically magazine cover articles. The Camaro and Corvette team conference rooms are decorated with large prints of the covers of all the major enthusiast magazines that they have appeared on. So are the bedroom dressers (or laptop hard drives) of targeted customers. GM is V E R Y serious about getting placement on covers. Contrary to some folks beliefs, those have to be earned. They cannot be bought.

I subscribe to Motor Trend and Car & Driver Used to get R&T, but they review mostly 6-figure & up super perf/lux cars and econo-boxes - nothing in-between. It's like they're showing you a car to dream about, then showing you what you can buy to commute in...

BUT, I have seen many covers with Camaros on them. Many, many of them are Mustang Vs Camaro. Some of them include others, depending on Camaro model. When I saw the 6th gen on the cover and read up about it - big power boost, lighter&trimmer than 5th, and that got me interested. Read a few more, then started browsing YouTube for reviews...

Come to think of it, MT was where I first saw "G37 beats 335i" it got my attention. I bought my G35 after seeing it in MT - and got tired of waiting for GTO to come out. Also, first saw Eclipse & Talon on MT cover(s), and '82 Camaro, too!