[kropscamaro16]

all i have to say is read the writeup on the yyz springs i have multiple track friends with 1le and ss with or without magride that have these and love them i dont sell them i dont make money off them all i did is help test them out, john is a great guy and has lots of experience in motorsports and even went out of the way to test all of the competitors out there ...


https://wildhammermotorsports.com/16...ll-race-parts/

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

Hmm, I didn't see that brand mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. Interesting.

Post #2, easy to find as he quoted it.

Why so upset?

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

Hmm, I didn't see that brand mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. Interesting.



You are trying to change the way it handles. That is why you are lowering the car. Can you detail the negative vs positive impacts here for this particular suspension design?



As this is a production vehicle from a mainstream manufacturer, they've built in a whole lot of margin of error into these shocks and the way they are programmed. DO you have the full suite of data that details thier operating conditions and the extremes? If so, please share!




Is that why you added those solid bushings? You've mentioned that at LEAST as many times as those YYZ springs...

Look, we all have different goals. This is an enthusiast website. Instead of parroting the same car forum BS that's been going on for decades now (0mG u ChAnGeD gEoMeTrY uR nOt EnGiNeEr!) how about providing some kind of actual data and real facts to back up what you're saying or just don't bother with a response?

I think the others were just asking for some evidence (ie. handling data, lap times, etc) that the lowering springs were providing some tangible improvement in handling. I don't believe that's been shared. The burden of proof that the change in question is actually providing a benefit is on the ones making the claim.

Right off the bat, I'm skeptical that aftermarket springs (YYZ or any other current offerings), which don't appear to be optimized for the SS 1LE specific configuration, have been tested and optimized to the same level that GM did. I may be wrong. GM spent a ton of time and money at many tracks including Nurburgring to dial in their setup and magazine journalists appear to have universally praised their work with lap times and handling data to back it up.

With that said, it's possible the springs in question do provide some benefit, but I'd want to see some data to back up the claim.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

Hmm, I didn't see that brand mentioned in this thread until you brought it up. Interesting.


Is that why you added those solid bushings? You've mentioned that at LEAST as many times as those YYZ springs...

POST#2

The solid cradle bushings are NOT the shocks/springs now are they? The solid bushing DO provide a tangible different and its why they ARE stock on the ZL1 1LE. They are associated with the lateral movement of the rear-end, NOT the up/down motions like shocks/springs. Your analogy makes no sense.

Wanna try that one again???

[Thill444]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

Look, we all have different goals. This is an enthusiast website. Instead of parroting the same car forum BS that's been going on for decades now (0mG u ChAnGeD gEoMeTrY uR nOt EnGiNeEr!) how about providing some kind of actual data and real facts to back up what you're saying or just don't bother with a response?

That's just it. All I see is anecdotal information with some marketing sprinkled in for aftermarket springs.

Where is the data showing an aftermarket spring improves handling vs the stock spring (or shows no difference vs OEM).

Maybe an independent capable driver do a hot lap before and after. What about how the car handles on bad roads/rough pavement after swapping springs?

Hey maybe an aftermarket spring is as good or better than OEM at handling, and gives you a lowered profile that some people like. But just saying "my buddy installed it on his 1LE and likes it" is not really tangible data.

[kropscamaro16]

go read it... if you are an engineer or know what you are looking at it might make sense to you if not goodluck


https://wildhammermotorsports.com/16...ll-race-parts/

[ST1LE]

LOL..............Poor OP, looking for help and got everything but.

[kropscamaro16]

afe power


eibach


bmr

hr

yyz



take your pick op! lol goodluck

[Thill444]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

LOL..............Poor OP, looking for help and got everything but.

Well it's a complicated answer. The whole point of purchasing an SS1LE is for the handling over the stock SS. So if you are going to change the handling it seems like you should really know what you are getting yourself into.

My recommendation is that if you really want the aesthetics/drop go for it. But I would do it myself because if you are not happy with the results it's really not much of a loss as labor is free and you can sell the aftermarket springs for a minimal loss then try again with another brand or go back to stock. Rinse and repeat. I know where I live they charge $100-125 per corner, to install springs not including cost of alignment.

Also make sure you know how much drop you will actually get in the real world. Some people only get 1/2" drop with some springs, seems like a lot of work for not much drop.

Trial and error.

[cdrptrks]

After doing research for springs on my previous car several years ago, I came to the conclusion that linear rate springs (like the stock springs on the SS 1LE) are more predictable when driving at the limit on track compared to progressive springs (see Cobb link below), but kropscamaro16 shared that there are multiple people who are happy with YYZ lowering springs (progressive dual rate, not linear) for track use so that is a good data point. Progressive springs are generally more comfortable than linear springs over road imperfections. So the best choice just depends on how the OP plans to use the car.

https://www.cobbtuning.com/linear-vs...gs-better-car/

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475647

Also Chevy Performance sells lowering springs for the Camaro SS but not for those with the MRC option, which is pretty telling that lowering springs alone would not likely improve track performance IMO, especially without reprogramming the MRC shocks/struts. They also sell a 1LE suspension kit along with MRC reprogramming for SS non-1LEs with MRC. Aftermarket springs are going to exert different forces on the shocks than the MRC system is calibrated for which could create unpredictable results if driving the car aggressively IMO.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Thill444

Well it's a complicated answer. The whole point of purchasing an SS1LE is for the handling over the stock SS. So if you are going to change the handling it seems like you should really know what you are getting yourself into.

My recommendation is that if you really want the aesthetics/drop go for it. But I would do it myself because if you are not happy with the results it's really not much of a loss as labor is free and you can sell the aftermarket springs for a minimal loss then try again with another brand or go back to stock. Rinse and repeat. I know where I live they charge $100-125 per corner, to install springs not including cost of alignment.

Also make sure you know how much drop you will actually get in the real world. Some people only get 1/2" drop with some springs, seems like a lot of work for not much drop.

Trial and error.

You're right it is complicated and very difficult. There is virtually no meaningful data to back up claims of improved performance by any manufacturer, only anecdotal.

There seems to be a belief that progressive rate springs are no good for MRC equipped cars, but I am not sure if that is true. In my experience and from the anecdotal evidence the progressive springs are great on the street(softer). I am only aware of two that offer linear springs, BMR and I think Phastek.

There are a couple on here that track their cars and have tried multiple lowering springs, including those mentioned by me and others, and the in the end they went back to stock as it was the fastest. I will accept their experience, and avoid spending money to have the same result myself.

For those that just want to enjoy their 1LE on the street, while lowered, it is basically down to stance. They all seem to offer a different drop, BMR appears low in the rear to me for example.

I think I would lean towards Eibach or YYZ for a street driven 1LE. Those have the most appealing drop to my eyes anyway, and both seem to have some real thought and work put in to them.

[Fast Ken]

I have had a lot of seat time in my 4th Gen Camaro at various tracks on the Left Coast. The progressive rate springs were SS/SLP Stage 2 on my '97 SS. They were great for the street and the car was fast and predictable at the track on street tires. Then I wanted to go faster and adding race slicks dropped my lap times significantly. But then it became obvious that braking/diving and turn-in body roll reactions could not be controlled with just sway bars and shocks. And installing linear rate springs didn't make the car that much faster but significantly easier and safer to drive at 9/10's or 10/10's....FYI.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

That makes no sense. Quality springs have nothing to do with it.

If you are lowering the car, you are decreasing suspension travel. To decrease suspension travel, you have to increase spring rate. If you increase spring rate, your shock damping will be insufficient for the new increased spring rate. You might think it's ok-enough, but when push comes to shove, when pushing the car, it will handle worse. You can't change physics.

You can make cars handle better, lowering springs (increased spring rate) without adjusting the shock damping rates does the opposite. If you lower it AND increase the shock damping appropriately, you can increase handling, at the expense of some ground clearance and putting down the power on rougher surfaces. Nothing is free, K&N intakes don't give you "free power".

The reason why this confuses people is that coil-overs generally allow for lower ride-height and much better quality damping, so people then think lowering=better, but that's only part of the equation. Lowering springs is the cheap fix that doesn't address all the issues. It's like putting on an axle-back exhaust and then claiming that you are getting more power because it's louder. That axle-back may be part of the system IF you put on the headers and all the other parts, but by themselves, they are just loud and not giving you more power.

On my BMW, I was able to offset my lowered ride height with the conservative ACS springs with an upgrade to the active-damping system, which increased the damping rates. This made it "appropriate", but unless you can do something similar (not to my knowledge with our cars), you should upgrade the dampers at the same time you lower it...if you don't want the handling to take a hit. There is something to be said for spring rate, in the sense that sometimes lowering-spring "companies" try to sell one-flavor for all, like one set of springs for the I4, the V6 and the V8, all with different weight distributions and amounts. That's obviously even worse and to be safe, check the part numbers on the parts they spec for each of those variants, but still, you need to address the damping if you change the spring force.

+1! Ditto TRZ06 response.

Firstly, if lowering is for aesthetics, no problem!

But, if it is for performance, then no serious track enthusiast would swap springs without dampers. Period.
And frankly, even John (YYZ) was developing (has developed?) dampers to go with his springs...

As far as "evidence", there was a post by somebody who has tried YYZ springs and he went consistently slower, not faster. Old thread, no desire to hunt for it, but it is there. SS 1LE as far as i recall.

Marketing wise, anyone and their dog can call just about anything "race", or "track tested", because there are zero rules regarding marketing and "race" sells and puts food on the table (and I respect this part). But, tread carefully, educate yourself and be sure of your purpose, as it is your wallet.

For me, unless a product has been tested by an independent pro and official lap deltas given, then those phrases mean absolutely sweet nothing.

Lastly, ive tracked an SS 1LE for 4 seasons now. Albeit this year's was a short one. I know what a well handling car feel like. I also know what a bad handling car feels like. Unless one knows what they are doing and are prepared to spend major $$$ i would not recommend touching anything suspension wise on THIS car.

A piece of trivia: SS 1LE beat the mighty Z/28 with a bit less weight, but good deal less power, lesser tires and no trick DSSV Multimatic suspension at Laguna driven by the same pro driver. Yes, our MRC suspension is THAT good. So...don't mess it up!

Cheers!

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

+1! Ditto TRZ06 response.

Firstly, if lowering is for aesthetics, no problem!

But, if it is for performance, then no serious track enthusiast would swap springs without dampers. Period.
And frankly, even John (YYZ) was developing (has developed?) dampers to go with his springs...

As far as "evidence", there was a post by somebody who has tried YYZ springs and he went consistently slower, not faster. Old thread, no desire to hunt for it, but it is there. SS 1LE as far as i recall.

Marketing wise, anyone and their dog can call just about anything "race", or "track tested", because there are zero rules regarding marketing and "race" sells and puts food on the table (and I respect this part). But, tread carefully, educate yourself and be sure of your purpose, as it is your wallet.

For me, unless a product has been tested by an independent pro and official lap deltas given, then those phrases mean absolutely sweet nothing.

Lastly, ive tracked an SS 1LE for 4 seasons now. Albeit this year's was a short one. I know what a well handling car feel like. I also know what a bad handling car feels like. Unless one knows what they are doing and are prepared to spend major $$$ i would not recommend touching anything suspension wise on THIS car.

A piece of trivia: SS 1LE beat the mighty Z/28 with a bit less weight, but good deal less power, lesser tires and no trick DSSV Multimatic suspension at Laguna driven by the same pro driver. Yes, our MRC suspension is THAT good. So...don't mess it up!

Cheers!

I think you are referring to Post #20 in the below thread. Yes a 1LE, and yes his experience with the YYZ springs was their progressive nature was too soft, caused greater body roll and worse weight transition leading to slower lap times. Seems to lend more 'evidence' that YYZ springs are good for a street driven car but should be avoided by those who track their cars.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...ing+1le&page=2