Slow starting cars

[camguynj]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

We where working on one of our Z/28 yesterday, we are adding a live mirror to the old 5th gen out of the 6gen cars with a mirror out of a truck ( fits the 5th gen) but at the same time i was looking at why this car (has headers) does not like to start.

We added a ground strap from the starter to the side of the body, and that helped but it still hung up after one turn then will kick in and start, that was on a full charged battery.

so now we where looking at the battery side of the problem, and what we found is the ground strap from GM, that goes from the battery to the body is nice looking but that's all, its covered in rubber and all you get is the little point of contact, where the bolt goes true for ground, so we added a second ground strap like the one we did up front.

All i can say is its better then when it was new car, will post videos next week of before and after, you can do this in 15 min, one last thing this is the OEM battery so its 6 going on 7 years old.

Couple of thoughts

1) Even though the battery was fully charged, given it's age suggest a load test with a battery analyzer to see what % of its cranking amps are left

2) Are you familiar with the "front positive terminal bypass" to provide more current from the battery to the starter ...see post 84 in this thread https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...=504199&page=6

[pzero]

5th Gen Z/28 is known for that issue. I've seen several other members here stating the same when cranked more than 2-3 times it hangs while trying to start. Mine does that when it's hot and when ever I stop, keys off, it hangs like it's low on battery. It's not the battery, is has to do with long cable voltage has to travel to the starter. Longer it travels, lower the crank amp to the starter.

Would like to see your video what you find out. Thanks.

"Engine won't start when hot"
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504199

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by SIM GhostrdrZ

Did you happen to take ohm readings from your factory grounding from negative battery terminal to starter vs. after you had made all the improvements?

Thanks

I did not, with a full charge on the battery the car will stop turning over for what seemed 1 sec, and the reset your windows will appear on the DIC, after the new ground wire was added the car keeps turning over when the key is tuned, it does not slow down or seem to hesitate, and no more resting the windows.

Here is the video its on our YouTube channel mods if its not ok to post then delete.

[pzero]

Cool! Just what the Dr. ordered. Looks like a cheap fix if you ask me. I'll try that this weekend. Thanks a bunch. Hope this solves the hot start issue.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by MontanaZ28

If you make the kit we will buy it. Both the ground cable and the mirror. Cant see shit out of a Camaro.

The ground one is done, the mirror works on the Z/28 and all 5th gens but for one thing that i am working on now, its only onstar, but some member like to use it so have to make a part.

[HoodCheck]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

The ground one is done, the mirror works on the Z/28 and all 5th gens but for one thing that i am working on now, its only onstar, but some member like to use it so have to make a part.

Just scooped one of the battery to body ground cables up

[SIM GhostrdrZ]

The slow starting is a simple ohms law issue. The more resistance a wire has = less voltage and therefore you need more current to get the same voltage. But with a smaller battery of the Z28 and the battery in the trunk for 5th gens creates a long path for cables and therefore limited current and so if there’s high resistance then voltage will greatly diminish.
I’m not having starting issues with my Z28 but I did this with my 14’ V6 and never had issues with it but it wasn’t a V8 cranking over. I wanted to get a heads up for any future issues. The battery cables are a great fix as it can lower cable resistance of problem areas.
I wanted to check my resistance/ohms of my Z28’s cables just to me a base line. My trunk cable is only 0.1 ohms and the entire ground from battery terminal to engine block/starter is 0.3 ohms. Anything under 1 ohm is good. When I reattach bolts for grounding and electrical connections, I use dielectric grease to help prevent corrosion which causing high resistance.
I apologize for the long winded post but I wanted to share why these cables might reduce resistance.
I hope everyone’s starting issues are improved.
Looking forward to cool rear view mirrors.
Thanks

[camguynj]

Originally Posted by SIM GhostrdrZ

The slow starting is a simple ohms law issue. The more resistance a wire has = less voltage and therefore you need more current to get the same voltage. But with a smaller battery of the Z28 and the battery in the trunk for 5th gens creates a long path for cables and therefore limited current and so if there’s high resistance then voltage will greatly diminish.
I’m not having starting issues with my Z28 but I did this with my 14’ V6 and never had issues with it but it wasn’t a V8 cranking over. I wanted to get a heads up for any future issues. The battery cables are a great fix as it can lower cable resistance of problem areas.
I wanted to check my resistance/ohms of my Z28’s cables just to me a base line. My trunk cable is only 0.1 ohms and the entire ground from battery terminal to engine block/starter is 0.3 ohms. Anything under 1 ohm is good. When I reattach bolts for grounding and electrical connections, I use dielectric grease to help prevent corrosion which causing high resistance.
I apologize for the long winded post but I wanted to share why these cables might reduce resistance.
I hope everyone’s starting issues are improved.
Looking forward to cool rear view mirrors.
Thanks

You hit the nail on the head with saying "more wire resistance = less voltage"

See post#64 in this thread https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...g#post10107568 which explains how in our cars have a secondary positive battery post under the hood on a sheet metal mounting bracket. When starting, this bracket creates enough resistance to reduce the current from the positive cable in the trunk that's connected to the under hood positive post cable which then goes to the starter ... resulting in reduced current/electrons being pulled/drawn by the starter from the starter's negative electron battery source (the engine block neg ground).

[SIM GhostrdrZ]

Originally Posted by camguynj

You hit the nail on the head with saying "more wire resistance = less voltage"

See post#64 in this thread https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...g#post10107568 which explains how in our cars have a secondary positive battery post under the hood on a sheet metal mounting bracket. When starting, this bracket creates enough resistance to reduce the current from the positive cable in the trunk that's connected to the under hood positive post cable which then goes to the starter ... resulting in reduced current/electrons being pulled/drawn by the starter from the starter's negative electron battery source (the engine block neg ground).

Resistance is also created by bolts, screws and connectors within the circuit. So troubleshoot the problem and then fix the problem with cleaning or replacing cables, connectors or such. Remember our blocks are aluminum and the attachment hardware is of different metal which can create dissimilar metal corrosion and then exacerbated by the heat of the headers. My point is that even the electrical system needs preventative Maintenance.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by SIM GhostrdrZ

The slow starting is a simple ohms law issue. The more resistance a wire has = less voltage and therefore you need more current to get the same voltage. But with a smaller battery of the Z28 and the battery in the trunk for 5th gens creates a long path for cables and therefore limited current and so if there’s high resistance then voltage will greatly diminish.
I’m not having starting issues with my Z28 but I did this with my 14’ V6 and never had issues with it but it wasn’t a V8 cranking over. I wanted to get a heads up for any future issues. The battery cables are a great fix as it can lower cable resistance of problem areas.
I wanted to check my resistance/ohms of my Z28’s cables just to me a base line. My trunk cable is only 0.1 ohms and the entire ground from battery terminal to engine block/starter is 0.3 ohms. Anything under 1 ohm is good. When I reattach bolts for grounding and electrical connections, I use dielectric grease to help prevent corrosion which causing high resistance.
I apologize for the long winded post but I wanted to share why these cables might reduce resistance.
I hope everyone’s starting issues are improved.
Looking forward to cool rear view mirrors.
Thanks

Hi, the pic you sent is only measuring the resistance in the short ground cable, that's not the problem IMO, its in the contact it makes with the body.

So next week i will bring down Z/28 #2 (not Vin #2 but my second one), that car is all set up for the track, starts hard real hard its still on the 1 st battery, and what will do is your ohm test before we start the car at home then will add the new cable and see if the car improves more.

We will video it for all to see, give us a week or so to do that.

[SIM GhostrdrZ]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

Hi, the pic you sent is only measuring the resistance in the short ground cable, that's not the problem IMO, its in the contact it makes with the body.

So next week i will bring down Z/28 #2 (not Vin #2 but my second one), that car is all set up for the track, starts hard real hard its still on the 1 st battery, and what will do is your ohm test before we start the car at home then will add the new cable and see if the car improves more.

We will video it for all to see, give us a week or so to do that.

So I got a base line for my individual car just in case I begin to have issues then I can troubleshoot and fix whatever issue I may have.

I was measuring the trunk negative battery cable because I believe that is one of the 2 you sell? So if you believe the issue is with the body contact, that’s why I clean the bolt and add dielectric grease as to prevent corrosion and therefore reducing resistance at that point.

I also took an ohm reading from that same negative trunk cable that attaches to the battery all the way up to the engine block near the starter. I did this with a long single test lead connected to the one multimeter lead and of course with the battery disconnected as ohm testing can only be taken this way. It read at 0.6 ohms with the long lead which is 0.25ohms and so 0.6 minus 0.25 is 0.3 ohms rounded up. But anything below 1 ohm is well within my limits and probably would be fine a little bit higher.
I’m very interested in your testing and video. I enjoy troubleshooting and finding out how others do it as well.

I had to add that it’s not my ohm test but it’s ohms law and I’m only testing the circuit or parts of it to find issues based on ohms law.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Where going to show you a test of how much voltage drop there is at start up and then the same ones we add the new cable on the gray car.

[SIM GhostrdrZ]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

Where going to show you a test of how much voltage drop there is at start up and then the same ones we add the new cable on the gray car.

I’m sorry if I confused this thread with your vendor thread. I thought this was a Z28 thread about slow starting cars. I am just trying to help folks out to troubleshoot and if it leads to your cables, so be it. If it leads to them just needing to clean some connection bolts/nuts, so be it. I’m not trying to sell anything but just to help educate about ohms law and how relevant it is to this issue and my share my many years of past troubleshooting experience. Again, I’m not trying to prove or disprove your product(s) that your selling on this thread. I’m sure your videos will be very helpful and many folks will buy your products which will fix their problems. Someday I might even do the same. I just will make sure I troubleshoot it first so I know I’m replacing a defective part.

Thank you

[George-CZ]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

I did not, with a full charge on the battery the car will stop turning over for what seemed 1 sec, and the reset your windows will appear on the DIC, after the new ground wire was added the car keeps turning over when the key is tuned, it does not slow down or seem to hesitate, and no more resting the windows.

Here is the video its on our YouTube channel mods if its not ok to post then delete.

Nice exhaust sound.