[ZapperZ]

Internal Combustion Forever!

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 90503

I'll hold out for the 2035 EV Corvette model shown here...The longer you wait, the better the EV technology will be...

Attachment 1080266

Actually one of the truest comments on the internet today.

EVs will continue to wildly better. ICEs are incremental improvements exponentially higher costs.

You nailed it!

[90503]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Actually one of the truest comments on the internet today.

EVs will continue to wildly better. ICEs are incremental improvements exponentially higher costs.

You nailed it!

It's too bad that ICE improvements will stall out (no pun intended) in favor of EV development. But it seems to me the biggest mix of available ICE and EV availability will be in the next three to five years. A good choice of both before the majority of ICE makes are discontinued. That seems to be EVs best opportunity to showcase it's features compared to ICE and win over skeptics with reliability, performance, etc., etc. Even though they are relatively new, much more affordable and desirable EVs need to be made.

So far all seem too few in production numbers and way too high in price. Just saying that they may become more affordable in the future doesn't really cut it. Eliminating a choice of ICE over EV smacks of coercion and force instead of one being the best choice.

The Bolt issue is not a good start or good PR for Chevy especially. Several years of trouble free operation and affordable charging EV history need to be realized before ICE is discontinued. Otherwise it seems way too premature to end ICE or even announce a target date to end ICE. I hope we don't throw away all the ICE progress and then regret it. Just my $.02

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Actually one of the truest comments on the internet today.

EVs will continue to wildly better. ICEs are incremental improvements exponentially higher costs.

You nailed it!

I calculated the energy density (kwh/kg) of a 2008 tesla roadster battery, and it wasn't appreciably different than the battery in the current model 3. Yes 1000+lbs of battery distributed on the bottom of the car is different than throughout, but it's no doubt a damper on making a driver oriented car. I can't find anything saying this will change anytime soon.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by L78toLT1

I'm no fan of ev's, but they are certainly capable of mind-blowing straight line performance. The low roof ev sedan that martinjlm speculates may be the next gen Camaro may well be boring and soulless, but it won't be slow.

Bolded for emphasis. This is the problem. Just isnt going to work for me. Thankfully Ill be long gone by the time battery powered cars take over. As I said, fine for a daily driver or runabout. But for a pleasure vehicle? Not a chance.

[Fak_Ork]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

CT4 / CT5 don’t necessarily have to go EV by 2025, but if Cadillac is going all EV by 2030 as they’ve stated, they can’t transition everything at once. Logic says Escalade will be last, since Escalade is clearly the cash cow for Cadillac. They won’t replace it with an EV until the very last possible moment. Lyriq is already on tap to replace XT5. If XT4 and XT6 replacements follow within the next couple years, that leave CT4 and CT5, both in the wildly popular sedan segment (<—sarcasm) and produced in a seriously under-utilized manufacturing plant that’s just begging to be converted to a Factory Zero. Leans heavily towards CT4 / CT5 being replaced by EV sooner than later. They may also wind up switching before XT4 / XT6 because from a portfolio point of view, Cadillac will already have an SUV EV. Adding a sedan EV broadens the portfolio before converting all the SUVs. That’s just me spit-ballin’ and pretending I’m still a Portfolio Planning executive.

"Wildly Popular" is about right- sarcastically I once special ordered a manual 2013 Fusion so I used to be a real outlier.

For me, Cadillac is always "close but not quite" and I'm not too terribly worried about what happens in 4-8 years as long as I get something with an ICE now that works as a performance sedan/coupe- emphasis on performance.

The CT4V Blackwing is a little out of my price range new, but it's where I'd like to be performance-wise. This leaves several options:

Camaro SS- Checks all the boxes, not sure if I can fit in one

M240i XDrive- yet to be determined but a sub-50k base price would be real competitive now that it's bumped up to the 382 HP V6. That pricing is very close to CT4-V non-blackwing

The A35 AMG is another car that's faster than the CT4-V yet priced about the same.

My wife may not agree on the urgency here, but an ICE performance car is a desperate need in the Fakork household and soon. I think GM is overcommitting but agree that the BEV direction is a solid one. BEV's help remediate one of the key issues with renewable energy- storage- and are great for the planet.

Can they make them fun? Can GM make them fun?

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Hops

I calculated the energy density (kwh/kg) of a 2008 tesla roadster battery, and it wasn't appreciably different than the battery in the current model 3. Yes 1000+lbs of battery distributed on the bottom of the car is different than throughout, but it's no doubt a damper on making a driver oriented car. I can't find anything saying this will change anytime soon.

Lithium ion batteries haven't really changed much other than the cost going down. That's about it. There just aren't any practical major changes to how they foundamentally work.

And planned obsolescence for consumer electronics hinders the need for develope better batteries a lot.

Originally Posted by Fak_Ork

"Wildly Popular" is about right- sarcastically I once special ordered a manual 2013 Fusion so I used to be a real outlier.

For me, Cadillac is always "close but not quite" and I'm not too terribly worried about what happens in 4-8 years as long as I get something with an ICE now that works as a performance sedan/coupe- emphasis on performance.

The CT4V Blackwing is a little out of my price range new, but it's where I'd like to be performance-wise. This leaves several options:

Camaro SS- Checks all the boxes, not sure if I can fit in one

M240i XDrive- yet to be determined but a sub-50k base price would be real competitive now that it's bumped up to the 382 HP V6. That pricing is very close to CT4-V non-blackwing

The A35 AMG is another car that's faster than the CT4-V yet priced about the same.

My wife may not agree on the urgency here, but an ICE performance car is a desperate need in the Fakork household and soon. I think GM is overcommitting but agree that the BEV direction is a solid one. BEV's help remediate one of the key issues with renewable energy- storage- and are great for the planet.

Can they make them fun? Can GM make them fun?

The German cars you mentioned are fine performance-wise, but the reliability turns me away. With BMW and MB, lease, don't buy. You don't want to deal with them once warranty is out. Don't forget to consider the depreciation. The Germans are especially bad when it comes to this - because as I mentioned, most of them are leased, so when the lease ends, they are all returned to the dealer, creating a huge supply that only the uninformed would like to take. I think it was Scotty Kilmer that said most of them actually ends up overseas in other less developed countries. Not sure about how true it is, but wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

And I don't know about being great for the planet. It's more like being less bad for the planet. I don't think I need to go all over again on lithium mining and where your electricity comes from.

Fun is subjective for everyone. For someone who likes the noise and driving a stick, an EV won't be fun. A Miata would be a lot slower in a straight line, but still more fun to those who want a manual ICE car. If you just want performance, then EV could fulfill in that department.

[Roostie]

For those against EVs, who think they aren't fun, have you driven a good EV? I test drove a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor and it was a *blast* to drive. 0-60 in 4.2, and it always has max power available, not like ICE that only makes peak power at a certain rpm. It handled well and was fun to drive fast.

The $50k price of the Model 3 Dual Motor is reasonable considering the performance, safety and electronic features. Bonuses are that it's cheaper to fuel, and there is very little to maintain. Battery life is a concern to some, but I think it is sufficient for a good long ownership experience. Styling is good, seats are comfy, driving position is good. Paint, body panel fitment and interior materials are questionable.

If GM can build EVs that are as good as that Model 3, it'll be great. In fact, GM is likely shooting to outdo current EVs, because Porsche, Tesla etc. are surely working on their next generation EVs. As others noted, EVs are improving by leaps and bounds.

A limitation for automakers who claim they will only make EVs in the future is apartment dwellers. Those people usually can't park near an electric outlet. Unless and until electric infrastructure grows a huge amount, all those people still need ICE.


I agree that if there is a particular ICE enthusiast car you really want to buy new, it would be a good idea to acquire it in the next couple years because it seems likely that many ICE cars will be replaced by EV models.

[Fak_Ork]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Lithium ion batteries haven't really changed much other than the cost going down. That's about it. There just aren't any practical major changes to how they foundamentally work.

And planned obsolescence for consumer electronics hinders the need for develope better batteries a lot.



The German cars you mentioned are fine performance-wise, but the reliability turns me away. With BMW and MB, lease, don't buy. You don't want to deal with them once warranty is out. Don't forget to consider the depreciation. The Germans are especially bad when it comes to this - because as I mentioned, most of them are leased, so when the lease ends, they are all returned to the dealer, creating a huge supply that only the uninformed would like to take. I think it was Scotty Kilmer that said most of them actually ends up overseas in other less developed countries. Not sure about how true it is, but wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

And I don't know about being great for the planet. It's more like being less bad for the planet. I don't think I need to go all over again on lithium mining and where your electricity comes from.

Fun is subjective for everyone. For someone who likes the noise and driving a stick, an EV won't be fun. A Miata would be a lot slower in a straight line, but still more fun to those who want a manual ICE car. If you just want performance, then EV could fulfill in that department.

All good points although I should add that renewable resources (and the inherent storage that BEV's provide for higher-than-demand production during off hours of usage), battery longevity and potential recycling of the small amounts of lithium and other materials will keep moving that balance in favor of BEV's.

I hear you on the MB and BMW, a lot of opinions vary but the warranties are 2/3rds of Cadillac (Closer on Chevy products) and I know that out of warranty repairs are higher across the board. I know that Lifter failures in AFM engines are not exactly rare, I think I've known two users of the 5.3 truck motors personally that had this happen so there are balancing factors.

Lastly, an electric vehicle, particularly one as jarringly peculiar as the Teslas, has all the appeal of a vacuum cleaner powered CRV with a CVT to me. I like stepped geared automatic transmission ICE vehicles. Used to like manuals but I'd rather have the flexibility and speed of the A10 or Beemers A8. Suffice it to say that I am not excited about the future but know it will be OK and clean- Good Air quality is dreadfully underappreciated in this country and the EPA, while much reviled, is largely to thank for it.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Roostie

For those against EVs, who think they aren't fun, have you driven a good EV? I test drove a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor and it was a *blast* to drive. 0-60 in 4.2, and it always has max power available, not like ICE that only makes peak power at a certain rpm. It handled well and was fun to drive fast.

The $50k price of the Model 3 Dual Motor is reasonable considering the performance, safety and electronic features. Bonuses are that it's cheaper to fuel, and there is very little to maintain. Battery life is a concern to some, but I think it is sufficient for a good long ownership experience. Styling is good, seats are comfy, driving position is good. Paint, body panel fitment and interior materials are questionable.

So is my reply in some electronic invisible ink?

That's my point: fun is subjective. No one should be forcing their own definition of it on others.

For some die-hard stick shift guys, anything without a 3rd pedal and double-H shifter will make them yawn. A faster car can delay that, but it will happen.

If your source of fun specifically comes from the performance figures and the sensations associated with them, good for you! And I said EV could be fun for you. Same with the whole auto vs. manual debate. If you have fun from winning(AKA in it to win it) then automatic/EV is great. I personally have more fun in participation and experience, so stick shift is more fun for me.

BTW, just a subjective opinion from me since you brought it up: Model 3 is pretty generic looking and ugly. IMO Tesla lost its charm in terms of asthetics after Model X. Model S looks great, while Model X looks good for an SUV. The front of Model 3 and Model Y look like knockoff Porsche to me, and not in a good way. I actually think the new Leaf looks better than Model 3, at least when we compare the front ends. Again, keep the grilles, guys.

Originally Posted by Fak_Ork

All good points although I should add that renewable resources (and the inherent storage that BEV's provide for higher-than-demand production during off hours of usage), battery longevity and potential recycling of the small amounts of lithium and other materials will keep moving that balance in favor of BEV's.



I hear you on the MB and BMW, a lot of opinions vary but the warranties are 2/3rds of Cadillac (Closer on Chevy products) and I know that out of warranty repairs are higher across the board. I know that Lifter failures in AFM engines are not exactly rare, I think I've known two users of the 5.3 truck motors personally that had this happen so there are balancing factors.



Lastly, an electric vehicle, particularly one as jarringly peculiar as the Teslas, has all the appeal of a vacuum cleaner powered CRV with a CVT to me. I like stepped geared automatic transmission ICE vehicles. Used to like manuals but I'd rather have the flexibility and speed of the A10 or Beemers A8. Suffice it to say that I am not excited about the future but know it will be OK and clean- Air quality is dreadfully underappreciated in this country and the EPA, while much reviled, is largely to thank for it.

Good point on the energy storage but again, distribution will be the challenge as someone else mentioned.

As for AFM, it doesn't seem like there are that many failures around here. Remember that even the stick shift models here have AFM lifters(for better streamlining of manufacturing), they just don't get used. For the trucks, there are gonna be more lemons given how many trucks there are out there, and trucks are more likely to be subjected to neglected maintenance than a Corvette or a Camaro. Besides, you can disable AFM rather easily if it makes you uncomfortable. I still trust an NA V8 with AFM way more than a high-strung, over-engineered German turbocharged engine.

I am personally an extremist when it comes to powertrain - I either drive a stick or I will be buying a hybrid or EV. Autos are a bit of "master of none" to me since they aren't as fun to me while they're not quite as efficient as a hybrid or EV. But that's my opinion, and I get the appeal of good auto + ICE.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Roostie

For those against EVs, who think they aren't fun, have you driven a good EV? I test drove a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor and it was a *blast* to drive. 0-60 in 4.2, and it always has max power available, not like ICE that only makes peak power at a certain rpm. It handled well and was fun to drive fast.
.

Some of the anti-EV voices (like me), aren't really against EV's but against the mandate against ICE. We had a loaner Bolt for a couple days, and that car really changed my mind about EV's, i really liked it! I'd really like one of those (if < $25k)along side my Camaro, or other ICE performance car. But that's not what's happening, everything is changing to EV. So while i'm open to the idea of getting an EV, i'm instead waiting to put all my car spending money on one the last performance ICE machines out there, and will not be taking part in the first generation of performance EV's, if ever.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Lithium ion batteries haven't really changed much other than the cost going down. That's about it. There just aren't any practical major changes to how they foundamentally work.

And planned obsolescence for consumer electronics hinders the need for develope better batteries a lot.

Gotta throw a flag on the play here. Advances in lithium ion battery technology and content has made the batteries a lot more energy dense and simultaneously lower cost. This is what is fueling the rush to electrification from the automakers’ point of view. Remember, “ion” is a generic term. Battery content (actually, just the anode and cathode) are lithium plus some other combinations of other chemicals, collectively referred to as “ion”. There’s lithium manganese, there’s lithium sulfur, there’s Lithium NMC (nickel + manganese + cobalt) and on and on.

Different battery manufacturers and automakers focus on different chemistry constructs depending on if they are trying to optimize mass or cost or charging efficiency or durability or power density or something else. GM has already started building a plant to produce their 2nd generation Ultium battery before they’ve even sold a vehicle using first generation Ultium. That’s how fast battery technology is changing.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Roostie

For those against EVs, who think they aren't fun, have you driven a good EV? I test drove a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor and it was a *blast* to drive. 0-60 in 4.2, and it always has max power available, not like ICE that only makes peak power at a certain rpm. It handled well and was fun to drive fast.

The $50k price of the Model 3 Dual Motor is reasonable considering the performance, safety and electronic features. Bonuses are that it's cheaper to fuel, and there is very little to maintain. Battery life is a concern to some, but I think it is sufficient for a good long ownership experience. Styling is good, seats are comfy, driving position is good. Paint, body panel fitment and interior materials are questionable.

If GM can build EVs that are as good as that Model 3, it'll be great. In fact, GM is likely shooting to outdo current EVs, because Porsche, Tesla etc. are surely working on their next generation EVs. As others noted, EVs are improving by leaps and bounds.

A limitation for automakers who claim they will only make EVs in the future is apartment dwellers. Those people usually can't park near an electric outlet. Unless and until electric infrastructure grows a huge amount, all those people still need ICE.


I agree that if there is a particular ICE enthusiast car you really want to buy new, it would be a good idea to acquire it in the next couple years because it seems likely that many ICE cars will be replaced by EV models.

I was surprised recently when a Xpel installer told me that Tesla has the worse paint and panel fitment he sees. Interesting coming from a guy that spends all day, every day, finessing paint protection film on everything from Camaro's to Ferrari's.

I think that EV flat face styling is already getting old. The Cadillac Lyriq is as refreshing as it is good looking.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Hops

I calculated the energy density (kwh/kg) of a 2008 tesla roadster battery, and it wasn't appreciably different than the battery in the current model 3. Yes 1000+lbs of battery distributed on the bottom of the car is different than throughout, but it's no doubt a damper on making a driver oriented car. I can't find anything saying this will change anytime soon.

Then you aren’t looking at the right stuff.

Energy density is only a part of it. The more important metric is the cost for that density. That is coming down HUGE.

Same as cost per HP only that is going up.

Solid state batteries will, when practical, change all of this.