[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by camaro5

It's not that any car can truly replace the Corvette.

It's that the Camaro is taking over the sales niche occupied by Corvette for years, as Corvette moves up in the world.

I believe this situation solidify's Camaros continued existence, and will continue to offer top-notch performance in a affordable (in today's terms) performance car.

.....

EXACTLY! This has gone on in the auto industry for decades. For example...the current Chevrolet Malibu occupies the same price position that Impala used to occupy and is almost the same size as the last gen Impala. Look at the Honda lineup. The original Honda Accord was about the size of the current Honda Fit (the car BELOW the Civic) The Accord grew and the Civic was added to go into the place Accord grew out of. Then the Accord grew again, the Civic grew to replace that Accord, and the Fit was slotted in the size / price category that Civic came out of.

Works for trucks too. If you happen to see a new Chevrolet Colorado mid-sized truck parked next to a 1990's Silverado, you'll notice something interesting. The "mid-sized" Colorado is actually a little larger than a base or crew cab Silverado from the '90's.

For years, since Ford had no direct Corvette competitor, Mustang had to fill the spectrum from affordable 4-cylinder sporty car competing against base content Camaro to boosted V8 beast to compete (at some level) against Corvette. Look for Camaro to have broad coverage with some overlap between top-of-the-line Camaro and entry level Corvette, with some Corvettes playing in the Ferrari / 911 GT2 sandbox. Fact is, with ZL1 that overlap exists today. All that's missing is the exotic Corvette. We'll probably see that at the North American International Auto Show in January.

[zl1_tommy]

no.

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Which to me would be a failure on both parts. If the Camaro also moves up scale, that to me makes the Camaro lose some of it's appeal.

Martinjlm said below: Fact is, with ZL1 that overlap exists today.

It's already happened. Yet there are still $22k Camaros available for "down scale"

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

EXACTLY! This has gone on in the auto industry for decades. For example...the current Chevrolet Malibu occupies the same price position that Impala used to occupy and is almost the same size as the last gen Impala. Look at the Honda lineup. The original Honda Accord was about the size of the current Honda Fit (the car BELOW the Civic) The Accord grew and the Civic was added to go into the place Accord grew out of. Then the Accord grew again, the Civic grew to replace that Accord, and the Fit was slotted in the size / price category that Civic came out of.

Works for trucks too. If you happen to see a new Chevrolet Colorado mid-sized truck parked next to a 1990's Silverado, you'll notice something interesting. The "mid-sized" Colorado is actually a little larger than a base or crew cab Silverado from the '90's.

For years, since Ford had no direct Corvette competitor, Mustang had to fill the spectrum from affordable 4-cylinder sporty car competing against base content Camaro to boosted V8 beast to compete (at some level) against Corvette. Look for Camaro to have broad coverage with some overlap between top-of-the-line Camaro and entry level Corvette, with some Corvettes playing in the Ferrari / 911 GT2 sandbox. Fact is, with ZL1 that overlap exists today. All that's missing is the exotic Corvette. We'll probably see that at the North American International Auto Show in January.

The Civic is actually rated a midsize car now and is an obvious example of "stretching sales niches"

You think this Detroit Jan for C8? No BG tours until Jan. 2019, I was thinking they're keeping it under wraps until Detroit Jan. 2019...idk

I'm really hoping for the 2019 Camaro refresh at Detroit 2018.

l

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by camaro5

Martinjlm said below: Fact is, with ZL1 that overlap exists today.

It's already happened. Yet there are still $22k Camaros available for "down scale"



l

I get that there is overlap performance wise, but you know what won't ever change? The fact that a Camaro will NEVER be a Corvette. I don't care if the ZL1 is faster than a Corvette for similar or less money. I don't care that it could run circles around it. If I want a Corvette I am buying a Corvette. If the Corvette moves out of the price bracket its in completely then I am not going to consider a Camaro in stead of a Corvette. I have said it many times, buying a brand new Vette is one of my bucket list items in my life. I have just always had a thing for Vettes. If the Corvette moves out of the affordable range for what it is, then sorry not going to consider a Camaro instead EVER. They would have lost a sale from me. I know that's probably an unpopular opinion around here but that's just the way I feel.

[Glen e]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get that there is overlap performance wise, but you know what won't ever change? The fact that a Camaro will NEVER be a Corvette. I don't care if the ZL1 is faster than a Corvette for similar or less money. I don't care that it could run circles around it. If I want a Corvette I am buying a Corvette. If the Corvette moves out of the price bracket its in completely then I am not going to consider a Camaro in stead of a Corvette. I have said it many times, buying a brand new Vette is one of my bucket list items in my life. I have just always had a thing for Vettes. If the Corvette moves out of the affordable range for what it is, then sorry not going to consider a Camaro instead EVER. They would have lost a sale from me. I know that's probably an unpopular opinion around here but that's just the way I feel.

It’s not unpopular, and in my opinion it is correct. The two don’t compete against each other. You only buy a Camaro after considering a vette if you’re a Chevy nut...… Everybody else in the world considers the Corvette to be on their bucket list, not the Camaro.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by camaro5

......
You think this Detroit Jan for C8? No BG tours until Jan. 2019, I was thinking they're keeping it under wraps until Detroit Jan. 2019...idk

I'm really hoping for the 2019 Camaro refresh at Detroit 2018.

l

What a difference a few months makes. Before I retired in March I would have known for certain, but sworn to absolute secrecy, which vehicles were headed to which auto shows. My team covered all the major global auto shows to keep track of what competitors were doing. Normally I'd be in LA right now covering all the press conferences. <sigh>.

So, back to reality. I misspoke when I suggested C8 for Detroit in January. I was thinking ZR1, even though I said C8. Good times we're living in when there's so much product I can make that mistake.

Chevy has three performance products to roll out and will likely only do one per major auto show. Here's how I think they'll shake out...

• Corvette ZR1 - NAIAS in Detroit in January. Anything else would surprise me.
• 2019 Camaro refresh - either Chicago in February or NYIAS in NYC in March/April. My money is on NYC. More media coverage and Chicago has become more truck focused over the past several years.
• C8 - Logic says NAIAS in Detroit in January 2019, but that would be pretty late, given the likely production dates. Could also happen in Geneva in April '18 or Paris in October '18 or completely off the auto show circuit at a US location. My money's on the last option.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get that there is overlap performance wise, but you know what won't ever change? The fact that a Camaro will NEVER be a Corvette. I don't care if the ZL1 is faster than a Corvette for similar or less money. I don't care that it could run circles around it. If I want a Corvette I am buying a Corvette. If the Corvette moves out of the price bracket its in completely then I am not going to consider a Camaro in stead of a Corvette. I have said it many times, buying a brand new Vette is one of my bucket list items in my life. I have just always had a thing for Vettes. If the Corvette moves out of the affordable range for what it is, then sorry not going to consider a Camaro instead EVER. They would have lost a sale from me. I know that's probably an unpopular opinion around here but that's just the way I feel.

Couldn't agree with you more. A Camaro will never be a Corvette. There will always be a performance gap comparing top-to-top and comparing base-to-base. But they will continue to be very different in terms of styling and in terms of competitive set. The difference that I have tried to point out is that now Chevrolet is more comfortable stretching the Camaro portfolio to the point where Camaros on the top end of the portfolio might actually out-perform Corvettes on the low, maybe even middle of the Corvette portfolio. They have to do this to compete head on with Mustang, which has spread its portfolio to try to take on both Camaro and Corvette. The Camaro / Mustang competition is more important to Chevrolet than maintaining a Camaro / Corvette spread.

In the old days, maintaining the spread meant dumbing down the Camaro. Today it means unleashing the Vette.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Couldn't agree with you more. A Camaro will never be a Corvette. There will always be a performance gap comparing top-to-top and comparing base-to-base. But they will continue to be very different in terms of styling and in terms of competitive set. The difference that I have tried to point out is that now Chevrolet is more comfortable stretching the Camaro portfolio to the point where Camaros on the top end of the portfolio might actually out-perform Corvettes on the low, maybe even middle of the Corvette portfolio. They have to do this to compete head on with Mustang, which has spread its portfolio to try to take on both Camaro and Corvette. The Camaro / Mustang competition is more important to Chevrolet than maintaining a Camaro / Corvette spread.

In the old days, maintaining the spread meant dumbing down the Camaro. Today it means unleashing the Vette.

And I agree with you. My point is that if Corvette say just abandons that entry level price range of say 55-65 and just goes to the 90 or 100K range and GM expects top end Camaro's to fill that void, THAT will be the mistake IMO.

[Martinjlm]

It's official.....I'm slipping. I assumed ZR1 would be NAIAS. Nope....unveiled today at LA Auto Show. That means either 2019 Camaro or C8 for NAIAS.

C8 at NAIAS doesn't make sense so close to ZR1, so I am thinking Camaro at NAIAS or NYIAS. C8 is still feeling like its own event off the auto show circuit.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

What a difference a few months makes. Before I retired in March I would have known for certain, but sworn to absolute secrecy, which vehicles were headed to which auto shows. My team covered all the major global auto shows to keep track of what competitors were doing. Normally I'd be in LA right now covering all the press conferences. <sigh>.

So, back to reality. I misspoke when I suggested C8 for Detroit in January. I was thinking ZR1, even though I said C8. Good times we're living in when there's so much product I can make that mistake.

Chevy has three performance products to roll out and will likely only do one per major auto show. Here's how I think they'll shake out...

• Corvette ZR1 - NAIAS in Detroit in January. Anything else would surprise me. Surprise!! LA
• 2019 Camaro refresh - either Chicago in February or NYIAS in NYC in March/April. My money is on NYC. More media coverage and Chicago has become more truck focused over the past several years.
• C8 - Logic says NAIAS in Detroit in January 2019, but that would be pretty late, given the likely production dates. Could also happen in Geneva in April '18 or Paris in October '18 or completely off the auto show circuit at a US location. My money's on the last option.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It's official.....I'm slipping. I assumed ZR1 would be NAIAS. Nope....unveiled today at LA Auto Show. That means either 2019 Camaro or C8 for NAIAS.

C8 at NAIAS doesn't make sense so close to ZR1, so I am thinking Camaro at NAIAS or NYIAS. C8 is still feeling like its own event off the auto show circuit.

Not sure why you are surprised. The ZR1 was already unveiled in Dubai two weeks ago. The only new news today was the $119,000 price tag.

I agree with a C8 introduction though. That will likely be set up on a stage all unto itself with much pomp and circumstance. You don't do an all new Corvette and simply roll it out in New York. I expect Detroit and a unique event or at least a big build up to an auto show reveal, but we shall see.

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get that there is overlap performance wise, but you know what won't ever change? The fact that a Camaro will NEVER be a Corvette.

We agree on that:

Originally Posted by camaro5

It's not that any car can truly replace the Corvette.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

What a difference a few months makes. Before I retired in March I would have known for certain, but sworn to absolute secrecy, which vehicles were headed to which auto shows. My team covered all the major global auto shows to keep track of what competitors were doing. Normally I'd be in LA right now covering all the press conferences. <sigh>.

I knew you were an insider. Could have bilked you for info before March...Enjoy retirement!

You must know Scott Settlemire really well. Miss him around here.

.

[devnull]

It did for me.

I've owned 5 vettes, and I consider my SS 1LE a "Z51 Stingray with a Camaro body". Literally feels better than my non Z51 stingray did.

My order of preference

2SS
Stingray
Z51/SS 1LE (tie)
Grand Sport
ZL1
Z06

These cars are amazing

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by camaro5

We agree on that:






I knew you were an insider. Could have bilked you for info before March...Enjoy retirement!

You must know Scott Settlemire really well. Miss him around here.

.

As it turns out, I know who Scott is, but wasn't directly acquainted with him. I did know Al O. and Jim Kalahar very well. Also Tadge, Ed Piatek, Barb Armbruster and Harlan Charles on the Corvette team. I don't compromise them by calling and asking "so, what's gonna show up in....?" They probably wouldn't tell me anyway.

By the way..... Notice I didn't join until March.....wonder why???

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Not sure why you are surprised. The ZR1 was already unveiled in Dubai two weeks ago. The only new news today was the $119,000 price tag.

I agree with a C8 introduction though. That will likely be set up on a stage all unto itself with much pomp and circumstance. You don't do an all new Corvette and simply roll it out in New York. I expect Detroit and a unique event or at least a big build up to an auto show reveal, but we shall see.

I completely missed the Dubai reveal. I sort of ignored a lot of the buzz because I already knew what the car was and had a pretty good idea of where the pricing was gonna fall. Still should have figured LA, but I thought given the CARB climate and EV focus of LA, GM would make a more fuel efficient / eco-friendly reveal at LA.