[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Number 3

This is the greatest Camaro ever designed for Camaro buyers. We were told when they went to the Camaro elite (not non Camaro customers) and asked them what they wanted in the Gen6. MOHRRRRRRR Camaro was the answer and it’s exactly what we got.

Exactly. And this approach, as we have seen, reduces the total number of potential buyers considerably. Something I've not seen mentioned here is the fact that Camaros tend to be higher priced (with some exceptions) than the competition. On the entry level side of this equation, a few hundred to 1K dollars to a young buyer looking for a sporty pony car heavily influences purchasing decisions. The same will hold true (only now we are 1k+ difference) for those in the mid to upper end of the pony car market.

Do these potential buyers fully understand what this extra money buys them in a Camaro? I'd venture a guess and say probably not. Most are only looking at the exterior, interior, features, space, MPG..etc. And many fail to realize the standard extra cooling, brakes...etc provided by equivalent Camaro. I will add there are Mustang owners that track their cars and find out the hard way about these gaps in the Mustang initial cost advantages. Enter the aftermarket to the rescue... again. Which eats into any initial cost savings and from what I have seen actually ends up costing more. The end result for Mr. Mustang buyer is a car that costs as much or more than a Camaro with a severely outclassed chassis, which is not easily addressed. The same is true of Fiat pony car.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by DanZ

The Camaro is primarily a car purchased by males, and younger males at that. Older males will typically move to the corvette.

Average age of a Camaro buyer is.... 53

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

LT5 in a 6th gen isn't going to boost sales. It's just not. People need to stop saying that it will.

The number of people that will pony up $85k+ for a LT5 powered 6th gen isn't enough to warrant it.

Everyone is missing the point on this LT5 thing. The platform would have to go thru several EPA tests to be certified for sale to the public. The cost/time vs the sales isn't going to work.

Dropping the LT4 in the LT1/SS would have a better shot since it has already passed all of the Govmint requirements for production vehicles in this specific vehicle.

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

No, people won't pay that much for a Camaro but they will pay far more than that for a Mustang or Challenger.

As previously mentioned this is primarily due to the fact that Frod doesn't have a "Halo" car the typical Mustang buyer would ever be able to afford. So they satisfy this need with special run GT350/500 cars. GM has the Corvette which limits the Camaro from both a performance and pricing standpoint in the market place. Ask yourself... would you buy a GT500CF for 100K+ if Frod GT prices started at 90K? Of course, you wouldn't.

Unlike Frod this is a real dilemma at GM/Chevy. Which explains the "parts bin" approach. Why reinvent the wheel if you have already spent significant time and money in development work for corporate "halo" car? I for one am fine with hand me down parts bin from GM. So many awesome engine options to choose from. I'll take a 1LE with Blackwing and C7 CF brakes, please. Add/enhance this little 4.2l DOHC TS-TT reverse flow V8, by increasing the size of twin water to air intercoolers, stuff some Ti rods in there, play with cams, CNC heads, add free flowing exhaust, up redline to ~7K and stand back. Would I pay 85K for this? Absolutely, would anyone else...doubtful. And you said GM engine development was "half assed". try again.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LESS1

As previously mentioned this is primarily due to the fact that Frod doesn't have a "Halo" car the typical Mustang buyer would ever be able to afford. So they satisfy this need with special run GT350/500 cars. GM has the Corvette which limits the Camaro from both a performance and pricing standpoint in the market place. Ask yourself... would you buy a GT500CF for 100K+ if Frod GT prices started at 90K? Of course, you wouldn't.

Unlike Frod this is a real dilemma at GM/Chevy. Which explains the "parts bin" approach. Why reinvent the wheel if you have already spent significant time and money in development work for corporate "halo" car? I for one am fine with hand me down parts bin from GM. So many awesome engine options to choose from. I'll take a 1LE with Blackwing and C7 CF brakes, please. Add/enhance this little 4.2l DOHC TS-TT reverse flow V8, by increasing the size of twin water to air intercoolers, stuff some Ti rods in there, play with cams, CNC heads, add free flowing exhaust, up redline to ~7K and stand back. Would I pay 85K for this? Absolutely, would anyone else...doubtful. And you said GM engine development was "half assed". try again.

I'm a Camaro guy. I never really was interested in the Corvette. If I had the resources to buy any Camaro or Corvette built, I would pick the Camaro.


Your proof of GM engine development not being half assed is an engine that doesn't exist? The Blackwing is a good example of it. Why does the Blackwing rev so low? Because of its small bore and long stroke. They built it that way to make it as small as possible. The Blackwing can't be bored or stroked to increase displacement. It's capped out where it is. The Blackwing is a long and expensive route to a lesser LT4. More expensive and heavier for 100 fewer horsepower. Hell, they even released a 3.0 TTV6 that barely makes 300 horsepower. Does that really impress you? The closest GM has come to an exotic engine recently was the LF4 in the ATS-V and even that was a dead end engine. It was barely a replacement for the LT1.

I disagree with Ford only building special Mustangs because there is no halo car over it. Ford has always built specialty vehicles. Ones GM would never dream of building. Things like the Cobra Rs, the Lightning trucks, the Raptors, the STs and RSs. There's nothing stopping GM from doing the same, except for the corporate attitude.

[Buff Orppington]

I bought mine Q1. I was well aware Camaros were going to be orphaned again. I bought it anyway because it was 3k less than a comparable Mustang, which i knew would live on as long as there is a Ford. I think people don't like buying orphans. That's probably 30 percent of the drop in sales.

Having said that, I love my Camaro. It's a low slung mystery car, both beautiful and unrecognizable.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by closs2sx

putting an lt5 in it would sell more lower end units as well.

No, it won't. It's not going to magically boost the sales of the entire line. When you have a struggling car line, offering a model that raises the price by 10s of thousands of dollars doesn't make people want to go out and buy more of them. It just doesn't work that way and if you have evidence to prove otherwise, feel free to post it up.

Advertising and pricing helps push sales and GM has no interest in helping in either of those with the Camaro.

[Dark Phoenix]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Average age of a Camaro buyer is.... 53

Due to price. Average younger people can not afford $50,000 plus car with all of the other inflation of costs in today’s USA.

Someone said Ford doesn’t have a Halo car affordable above Mustang like the Corvette is slotted above the Camaro. Mustang is Ford’s Corvette basically. Corvette was innovative and something completely new in 1953. Mustang was the same in 1964. Camaro was a Chevrolet response to the Mustang. Like Corvette, Mustang is a nameplate the people buy whether or not the car it’s self is trash or not.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Buff Orppington

I bought mine Q1. I was well aware Camaros were going to be orphaned again. I think people don't like buying orphans. That's probably 30 percent of the drop in sales.

That is part of the problem too, I think....
Gearhead has part of the answer too....

There are no deals/incentives. "Take it or leave it" is what I got when I was shopping.

GM has lost the connection with the last 2 generations of buyers.
There is zero advertising to lure in new buyers.

And, finally, the public in general doesn't want to purchase domestic cars.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Dark Phoenix

Due to price. Average younger people can not afford $50,000 plus car with all of the other inflation of costs in today’s USA.

Someone said Ford doesn’t have a Halo car affordable above Mustang like the Corvette is slotted above the Camaro. Mustang is Ford’s Corvette basically. Corvette was innovative and something completely new in 1953. Mustang was the same in 1964. Camaro was a Chevrolet response to the Mustang. Like Corvette, Mustang is a nameplate the people buy whether or not the car it’s self is trash or not.

Truth. I agree 100%

I'd also throw in that they aren't selling the lower priced V6/TI4 either though and they are more affordable.

Kids are going for Hondas/imports.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by hotlap

An LT5 Camaro would draw attention to the brand. Similar to what Ford did with the GT500 and Dodge did with the 2015 Hellcat and 2018 Redeye.
An LT2 type power increase to the SS would draw attention to the brand similar to what Ford did with the 18 Coyote A10 and Dodge did with the Scatpack.
No commercials needed. Social media will do it for you.
If you’re going to design and leave it alone until the next generation, don’t plan to be relevant in the fifth, sixth and seventh model year. Botched facelift or not.

Originally Posted by closs2sx

putting an lt5 in it would sell more lower end units as well. Even if you cant afford the top dog you want to be able to say your groups top dog will take down the other groups top dog its just human nature. Most people don't care about anything other than 1/4 and hp. At least that's the way all my friends that drive mustangs think. I will say it again do a good refresh and put the lt5 in it and I'll buy one. Heck I would buy one with an lt5 in it without a refresh but it would be nice to get a better looking one also at least the tail lights.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Their handling of the Camaro has been abysmal. Or do you think a likely second cancellation is a ringing endorsement?
The Camaro has been getting "Corvette engines" since what 1991? People just hear "Corvette" and think it means anything special. Especially considering the Corvette engines have been bested at every level by comparable options from Dodge and Ford, LT2 aside. Even then, I don't see the LT2 fitting in the Camaro. The manifold looks too tall.
The Camaro is the most compromised car in the segment.
What does someone getting excited over some random internet rendering have to do with it?
The engine options are lacking.
The A8 stayed around far too long.
The naming scheme is mediocre.
The "special" editions are just sticker packs.
No power increases over the life different models.
Nothing done to get some life back in a failing program.
Look at all the versions Dodges has brought out. The Scat Packs, the 1320 editions, where you can strip out the whole interior or get it all for a dollar. The wide body versions. Power increases. The Demon. The Redeye.
Ford has the GT350 with a flat plane crank V8, the R carbon fiber wheels, the Bullett with more power. The GT500 with a dual clutch transmission. Now they are bringing in the Mach 1, most likely with more power. All things GM doesn't do and would never consider doing for the Camaro.
The chassis engineering is the only thing on the Camaro that keeps it relevent. Anything else has come from what GM allows them to use or what Team Camaro had the authority to do.

Originally Posted by LESS1

Exactly. And this approach, as we have seen, reduces the total number of potential buyers considerably. Something I've not seen mentioned here is the fact that Camaros tend to be higher priced (with some exceptions) than the competition. On the entry level side of this equation, a few hundred to 1K dollars to a young buyer looking for a sporty pony car heavily influences purchasing decisions. The same will hold true (only now we are 1k+ difference) for those in the mid to upper end of the pony car market.
Do these potential buyers fully understand what this extra money buys them in a Camaro? I'd venture a guess and say probably not. Most are only looking at the exterior, interior, features, space, MPG..etc. And many fail to realize the standard extra cooling, brakes...etc provided by equivalent Camaro. I will add there are Mustang owners that track their cars and find out the hard way about these gaps in the Mustang initial cost advantages. Enter the aftermarket to the rescue... again. Which eats into any initial cost savings and from what I have seen actually ends up costing more. The end result for Mr. Mustang buyer is a car that costs as much or more than a Camaro with a severely outclassed chassis, which is not easily addressed. The same is true of Fiat pony car.

Good stuff guys!

[closs2sx]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

No, it won't. It's not going to magically boost the sales of the entire line. When you have a struggling car line, offering a model that raises the price by 10s of thousands of dollars doesn't make people want to go out and buy more of them. It just doesn't work that way and if you have evidence to prove otherwise, feel free to post it up.

Advertising and pricing helps push sales and GM has no interest in helping in either of those with the Camaro.

mustang and dodge both have higher hp and they are selling better neither one handle as good and in my opinion neither look any better, Hp sells.
For me I buy on performance, it needs to be the entire package, i would just prefer the entire package to be the highest hp as well so there is no doubt which car is king of the road. Camaro leaves doubt in the minds of the uninformed. Like i said before HP and 1/4 mile times sell the car why do you think they go through the trouble to post the best possible times when they market them.

[closs2sx]

No one has ever pulled up along side me at a light and said my car has more hp than yours I win and then when the light turns green pulled away like a 90 yr old grandma. And nobody has ever challenged me to a race through the mountain esses its always cruising down the highway so thats why people flock to the higher hp cars. Its one thing if one car has 650 and the other is 655 but its a game changer when one is 650 the other is 720 and the other is 797. Believe me if I couldn't work on my car myself and needed a warranty to be intact I would be dumping my stock camaro (if my camaro was stock) right now for a gt500.

[Malbjey]

The Camaro isn't losing because of a halo model deficit.

It is losing because it's not as practical as the Mustang/Challenger and the visibility is worse. We are all used to the bunker after owning the car for months/years. However someone from the general public is going to sit in the car, say 'I can't see shit' and then leave. Every car review touches on this point. Very few people will buy a car with such visibility concerns, especially when the competitors are so much better.

Also, the Camaro isn't as practical. There's very little inside storage and the trunk opening is HORRIBLE. The trunk volume itself isn't bad, but the opening compromises what you can actually fit in there. The competitors don't have that problem.

The back seat is worse as well. Yes, you probably won't be transporting back seat passengers that often in a Mustang or Challenger but the Camaro makes it damn near impossible.

If GM addressed the visibility and practicality then it would be a better seller. Simple as that.