[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

You're welcome, hope you'll never have to join that class action. I have several other protection measures in place (because this is my forever Camaro and I can't risk it getting stolen), but they all detract from the ease of use, so GM can go pound sand with this vulnerable design.

Thanks, arpad_m. I hear you. And I hope I don't have to join the class as well. My car is garaged at night, but there are times I have to park it for hours on end in parking garages in Houston when I have a deposition since it's my daily driver.

That's the place I often wonder when I come out if it will be there. They have a ton of time to work on it without many people around to deter the f'ers. The short hauls around town don't really concern me as much.

As soon as the housing market stabilizes, I'll drop the hammer and buy another home, and then I can garage it and buy some cheap new vehicle to get around town. Have to keep my DTI in check to get the home loan.

Just hoping my car makes it that far. Fingers crossed.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

You need a Faraday pouch, the send out signals... Google key fob relay attack....

Send out a signal, I’ll throw you a line

Sorry I couldn’t resist. After getting tickets to his Cleveland concert and watching the broadcast of his 100th MSG show, I’m in a Billy Joel state of mind…… no pun intended

[olrocker]

I’d like to know if the remote constantly transmits the matched frequency of the receiver in the car, but only for the hands free operation. In other words does the hands free locking and unlocking only work when the transmitter is within a couple feet of the car?

It seems like the remote operation with actually pressing the button has a much longer range than hands-free. So if you’re standing 20 feet from the car you can press the unlock button on the remote, but if someone tries to press the unlock buttons on the door or trunk they will not work until the remote is much closer.

Is that how it works?

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Send out a signal, I’ll throw you a line

Sorry I couldn’t resist. After getting tickets to his Cleveland concert and watching the broadcast of his 100th MSG show, I’m in a Billy Joel state of mind…… no pun intended

Love me some Billy Joel!!! I know he hates it, but I love "Piano Man" sitting in the Schooner Bar on a Royal Caribbean Cruise Ship... It's like sitting in Portsmouth, NH at a seaside bar with a bunch of salty sailors, as a blue collar boy through and through, that is my scene...

It's nine o'clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There's an old man sitting next to me
Makin' love to his tonic and gin

He says, "Son, can you play me a memory?
I'm not really sure how it goes
But it's sad and it's sweet, and I knew it complete
When I wore a younger man's clothes"

La, la, la, de, de, da
La, la, de, de, da, da, da

Sing us a song, you're the piano man
Sing us a song tonight
We're all in the mood for a melody
And you've got us feelin' alright

Now John at the bar is a friend of mine
He gets me my drinks for free
And he's quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
But there's someplace that he'd rather be

He says, "Bill, I believe this is killing me"
As a smile ran away from his face
"Well, I'm sure that I could be a movie star
If I could get out of this place"

Oh, la, la, la, de, de, da
La, la, de, de, da, da, da

Now Paul is a real estate novelist
Who never had time for a wife
And he's talkin' with Davy, who's still in the Navy
And probably will be for life

And the waitress is practicing politics
As the businessmen slowly get stoned
Yes, they're sharing a drink they call loneliness
But it's better than drinkin' alone
Just sing

Sing us a song, you're the piano man
Sing us a song tonight
Well, we're all in the mood for a melody
And you've got us feelin' alright

It's a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And the manager gives me a smile
'Cause he knows that it's me they've been comin' to see
To forget about life for a while

And the piano, it sounds like a carnival
And the microphone smells like a beer
And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar
And say, "Man, what are you doin' here?"

Oh, la, la, la, de, de, da
La, la, de, de, da, da, da

Sing us a song, you're the piano man
Sing us a song tonight

Well, we're all in the mood for a melody
And you've got us feelin' alright

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by olrocker

I’d like to know if the remote constantly transmits the matched frequency of the receiver in the car, but only for the hands free operation. In other words does the hands free locking and unlocking only work when the transmitter is within a couple feet of the car?

It seems like the remote operation with actually pressing the button has a much longer range than hands-free. So if you’re standing 20 feet from the car you can press the unlock button on the remote, but if someone tries to press the unlock buttons on the door or trunk they will not work until the remote is much closer.

Is that how it works?

Olrocker, that was my whole checking into this issue and the posts I put up in this thread to get to the bottom of this, asking the same questions.

And I followed up on my end and checked it tonight. The unlock button on the door handle will not work unless the FOB is within a few feet of the door. It's dead. No signal is sent whatsoever.

What I want to know, and have been trying to see if anybody knows, is if the FOB is sending out a signal 24/7 if nothing is pressed when it's just in your pocket that thieves can get. If so, a Faraday bag willl be bought on my end for sure. If the remote doesn't send a signal unless the lock/unlock button is pressed on the FOB, I'll just manually lock the car door without the FOB when I get out, and I'll leave the alarm not set.

Then when I come back to get in the car, the button on the door handle will unlock since I'm in close proximity to it. Problem solved, at least as it goes to this signal intercept issue.

Of course no alarm on my car, but people don't even hardly pay attention to them anyway. Without my FOB cloned, they can't easily start my car. A risk I'll take. Be interesting to find out. Hell, I might have to call GM. My Google searches are turning up empty.

Edit: After deep diving into this BS even more, looks like the FOBs on the 6th gens, and a lot of other vehicles, are sending out a signal 24/7 for crooks to intercept. Thanks, arpad_m, for the link to the signal blocker. About to order it.

What I don't get is why not have these FOBs only transmit when pressing the button, if I'm wrong about the 24/7 signal, to stop this bullshit of people being able to clone your FOB whenever they want? Totally dumb. But then, again, the class action lawsuit against GM talks about their shitty encryption as well. I'll try and pull up the petition tomorrow and dive into it. Sounds sketchy to me. But with GM, not surprised.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

Olrocker, that was my whole checking into this issue and the posts I put up in this thread to get to the bottom of this, asking the same questions.

And I followed up on my end and checked it tonight. The unlock button on the door handle will not work unless the FOB is within a few feet of the door. It's dead. No signal is sent whatsoever.

What I want to know, and have been trying to see if anybody knows, is if the FOB is sending out a signal 24/7 if nothing is pressed when it's just in your pocket that thieves can get. If so, a Faraday bag willl be bought on my end for sure. If the remote doesn't send a signal unless the lock/unlock button is pressed on the FOB, I'll just manually lock the car door without the FOB when I get out, and I'll leave the alarm not set.

Then when I come back to get in the car, the button on the door handle will unlock since I'm in close proximity to it. Problem solved, at least as it goes to this signal intercept issue.

Of course no alarm on my car, but people don't even hardly pay attention to them anyway. Without my FOB cloned, they can't easily start my car. A risk I'll take. Be interesting to find out. Hell, I might have to call GM. My Google searches are turning up empty.

Edit: After deep diving into this BS even more, looks like the FOBs on the 6th gens, and a lot of other vehicles, are sending out a signal 24/7 for crooks to intercept. Thanks, arpad_m, for the link to the signal blocker. About to order it.

What I don't get is why not have these FOBs only transmit when pressing the button, if I'm wrong about the 24/7 signal, to stop this bullshit of people being able to clone your FOB whenever they want? Totally dumb. But then, again, the class action lawsuit against GM talks about their shitty encryption as well. I'll try and pull up the petition tomorrow and dive into it. Sounds sketchy to me. But with GM, not surprised.

I figured the hands-free operation has to be constantly transmitting on a much lower bandwidth than the momentary signal for the remote buttons, but I wasn’t sure.

So the remote is constantly transmitting, and the car is constantly looking for the matching frequency for hands-free. And ignition of course.

To clone it then, a would-be thief would have to be pretty close. They couldn’t be in a car way down at the end of the aisle in a parking lot. They’d have to be within a car or two of yours.

Just be vigilant when you park. Look for suspicious people sitting in cars near you.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

Love me some Billy Joel!!! I know he hates it, but I love "Piano Man" sitting in the Schooner Bar on a Royal Caribbean Cruise Ship... It's like sitting in Portsmouth, NH at a seaside bar with a bunch of salty sailors, as a blue collar boy through and through, that is my scene...

Lol I wasn’t expecting to turn this thread into an evening with Billy Joel but once you write a song like that you can never leave the stage the rest of your life without closing your show with it.

I was a junior in high school when he released River of Dreams in ‘93. I reviewed the album as an oral presentation project in my public speaking class. Somewhere in all my unopened boxes in my basement that I haven’t touched in the 20 years since I bought my house is the video tape of all my speeches. Our teacher recorded everyone and let us all keep our tapes at the end of the class.

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Lol I wasn’t expecting to turn this thread into an evening with Billy Joel but once you write a song like that you can never leave the stage the rest of your life without closing your show with it.

I was a junior in high school when he released River of Dreams in ‘93. I reviewed the album as an oral presentation project in my public speaking class. Somewhere in all my unopened boxes in my basement that I haven’t touched in the 20 years since I bought my house is the video tape of all my speeches. Our teacher recorded everyone and let us all keep our tapes at the end of the class.

I've got a few years on you, I was a Junior in High School in 1984/85...

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by olrocker

I figured the hands-free operation has to be constantly transmitting on a much lower bandwidth than the momentary signal for the remote buttons, but I wasn’t sure.

So the remote is constantly transmitting, and the car is constantly looking for the matching frequency for hands-free. And ignition of course.

To clone it then, a would-be thief would have to be pretty close. They couldn’t be in a car way down at the end of the aisle in a parking lot. They’d have to be within a car or two of yours.

Just be vigilant when you park. Look for suspicious people sitting in cars near you.

Makes sense, Olrocker. I'm still interested if the FOB is transmitting that signal 20 or 30 feet away, though, without a press on the FOB for people to intercept.

But I ordered the Faraday arpad_m mentioned, and after I start my car I'll just put it in that, then manually lock my door when getting out, and keep the FOB in there till I get close to my vehicle for the proximity signal to kick in to unlock my car.

What a PITA.

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

I've got a few years on you, I was a Junior in High School in 1984/85...

Same here. Graduated in '88. But love Billy Joel as well.

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

Same here. Graduated in '88. But love Billy Joel as well.

Love it, but the FOB transmits or at least responds to a ping, so they are stealing the code from an idle FOB... Faraday Pouch as a minimum... My Camaro has about 8 layers of various protection... (I'm not going to detail them on a public forum, but they are going to REALLY want it to actually get it...)

[roostere4]

The issue isn't the range of the fobs transmitting or if they are constantly transmitting. The issue is that they will respond when they receive a signal from the vehicle. Relay attacks and why faraday bags/boxes are important are that thieves are able to using various techniques extend the range at which those signals between the car and the keyfob operate.

One way this is done is to have antennas near both the vehicle and the keyfob and another device connected to these antennas to that then retransmit the signals over a much stronger frequency, most likely adhoc wifi, but could really be any radio frequency. Now the range is not limited to the power/frequency of the original communication between the keyfob and car but this new carrier frequency. Basically the key/car signals are being encapsulated in another stronger signal for transmission. My crude outline tries to show this below.

key signal -> device -> wfifi signal {key signal} -> device -> keysignal -> car

So a pair of thieves can capture and retransmit signals up to the distance of the range of the device/frequency they are using for retransmission which could be hundreds of feet or more.
The antennas they are using for capture don't even need to be big, only large enough to effectively capture the signal from the key/car. That's why in the videos you seen on key relay attacks the unit by the car is small(very easy to capture that signal) and why the thief near the house has a larger wire loop antenna, this is the harder signal to capture.

If implemented in a man portable version for stealing vehicles out and about say at a mall. The capture antenna for the key fob can be much smaller, and fit discretely in a small backpack. They don't have to try and catch a weak far away signal. They can walk right behind you, (about the distance that a keyfob needs to be in order to passive unlock the car) and do do the same and require a smaller antenna that can easily be concealed. While their buddy is out at your car waiting to unlock, start it and drive away.

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

Love it, but the FOB transmits or at least responds to a ping, so they are stealing the code from an idle FOB... Faraday Pouch as a minimum... My Camaro has about 8 layers of various protection... (I'm not going to detail them on a public forum, but they are going to REALLY want it to actually get it...)

Thanks, 2SS Capt. Getting the Faraday tomorrow. Still can't figure out why they would have these things push out that signal for thieves to get on the FOB from 30 feet away, when the close proximity lock on the door handle only works within 5 feet.

Seems like to me if the lock/unlock function on the FOB was down to that range, at tops 10 feet, this would be a non-issue, and you could negate it by parking away from other vehicles. Total BS, but the world we live in I guess.

Appreciate the help.

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

Thanks, 2SS Capt. Getting the Faraday tomorrow. Still can't figure out why they would have these things push out that signal for thieves to get on the FOB from 30 feet away, when the close proximity lock on the door handle only works within 5 feet.

Seems like to me if the lock/unlock function on the FOB was down to that range, at tops 10 feet, this would be a non-issue, and you could negate it by parking away from other vehicles. Total BS, but the world we live in I guess.

Appreciate the help.

Here is the bigger problem, a $400 OBD-II 2 way scanner from Amazon lets them delete all of your key Fobs and program whatever Key Fobs they want in about 30 seconds... Search these forums for issues, there are a LOT of things you can do to help thwart the attack, but either way you will likely end up with a broken drivers window...