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Old 04-29-2021, 11:11 PM   #1
tmalaquin
 
Drives: Blue ss 1le 18
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DD with camber plates ?

Hey folks

I am highly considering installing camber plates on my SS1LE. (Vorschalg or equivalent)
I need more camber than stock setup can offer for track days,(wearing outer edge at -2.7deg), however, I daily drive my car so I can not stay with excessive negative camber up front otherwise I would cord the inner.

A few questions:
1-How bad is ride quality affected by the camber plates ?
2- I know that toe and camber are coupled on this McPherson but have you been able to find a sweet spot ? meaning being able to switch from track to street use without going to the alignment shop all the time to setup toe ? If so, what alignment specs are you running ?

Apologies if this topic has already been covered

Cheers
TM.
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Old 04-30-2021, 12:02 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmalaquin View Post
Hey folks

I am highly considering installing camber plates on my SS1LE. (Vorschalg or equivalent)
I need more camber than stock setup can offer for track days,(wearing outer edge at -2.7deg), however, I daily drive my car so I can not stay with excessive negative camber up front otherwise I would cord the inner.

A few questions:
1-How bad is ride quality affected by the camber plates ?
2- I know that toe and camber are coupled on this McPherson but have you been able to find a sweet spot ? meaning being able to switch from track to street use without going to the alignment shop all the time to setup toe ? If so, what alignment specs are you running ?

Apologies if this topic has already been covered

Cheers
TM.
Just looked into this... unfortunately it seems impossible to set toe as precisely as would be optimal without using a rack, so with a street driven car it's better to compromise camber and maintain zero toe. YMMV...
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Old 05-01-2021, 02:48 PM   #3
tmalaquin
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC113 View Post
Just looked into this... unfortunately it seems impossible to set toe as precisely as would be optimal without using a rack, so with a street driven car it's better to compromise camber and maintain zero toe. YMMV...
I wonder how much total toe out would be acceptable for track days.
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Old 05-01-2021, 03:17 PM   #4
Dabjbr
 
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I’m interested in this as well. I have to believe there is a sweet spot with camber/toe...

Like wouldn’t it be cool if -3.2 camber gave .10 toe out for track and .2.5 camber gave .05 toe in for street?

Those numbers were pulled from nowhere but I’m guessing that’s the idea you had in mind?

Lastly, if a perfect number isn’t there, you could alsways buy toe plates and adjust that yourself before and after track events. It would take a few times to master it but it’s doable..

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Old 05-02-2021, 08:31 PM   #5
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This is an excellent question:

I would add, any data on the ZLE at “track” and “street” position? I agree zero toe for the street and toe out for track. Got to find how much camber can be changed to achieve it.
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by tmalaquin View Post
I wonder how much total toe out would be acceptable for track days.
According to the owner of the tire and race shop I met at autox, zero is best for our cars both street and track, so it's best to just compromise a bit on camber and maintain zero toe. He said the difference between a compromised setup like my car, which is 2.3 degrees camber vs a more ideal ~3.2 is a couple tenths, and he would not want to drive the car with as much toe out as you'd get from camber plate adjustment, and attempts to adjust toe back and forth won't be accurate so you'll have unacceptable random deviations in toe with that approach.

He's got a lot of experience, I'll take his advice... it also saves a lot of cash and and lot of work changing alignment back and forth.

Luckily with our cars we can get up to ~2.6 camber w/o plates, that's enough for a car driven on the street + autox/track, and if you get too much inside wear you'll have to adjust your driving habits and take corners faster.
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Old 05-02-2021, 10:41 PM   #7
tmalaquin
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC113 View Post
According to the owner of the tire and race shop I met at autox, zero is best for our cars both street and track, so it's best to just compromise a bit on camber and maintain zero toe. He said the difference between a compromised setup like my car, which is 2.3 degrees camber vs a more ideal ~3.2 is a couple tenths, and he would not want to drive the car with as much toe out as you'd get from camber plate adjustment, and attempts to adjust toe back and forth won't be accurate so you'll have unacceptable random deviations in toe with that approach.

He's got a lot of experience, I'll take his advice... it also saves a lot of cash and and lot of work changing alignment back and forth.

Luckily with our cars we can get up to ~2.6 camber w/o plates, that's enough for a car driven on the street + autox/track, and if you get too much inside wear you'll have to adjust your driving habits and take corners faster.
I actually get too much wear on the outside with -2.7 deg at the track so I end up with 4 Tdays per set of tire which is not viable. I would be ok to sacrifice a few tenth for more track time with the same set of tire. Just want to understand what is the max acceptable toe out before the car get unstable under heavy braking etc. I am sure our ZLE friends must have some insights on this
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Old 05-02-2021, 10:44 PM   #8
tmalaquin
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabjbr View Post
I’m interested in this as well. I have to believe there is a sweet spot with camber/toe...

Like wouldn’t it be cool if -3.2 camber gave .10 toe out for track and .2.5 camber gave .05 toe in for street?

Those numbers were pulled from nowhere but I’m guessing that’s the idea you had in mind?

Lastly, if a perfect number isn’t there, you could alsways buy toe plates and adjust that yourself before and after track events. It would take a few times to master it but it’s doable..

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That's exactly what I have in mind but I just want to make sure it's feasible before I buy those camber plates. I want to avoid the toe plates, makes the list of track preps even longer, but yeah worst case scenario it's doable.
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Old 05-03-2021, 07:52 AM   #9
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I don't think the camber wear will be super dramatic at -3.2. I stick with -2.5 for autox and street, and when I checked my street tires with a depth gauge, the camber wear was marginal. Camber really only wears tires super fast on those stanced cars, otherwise accelerated wear is almost always the toe being out. The little bit of extra wear on the street tires will probably be made up if you can get an extra event out of the track tires.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:03 AM   #10
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Lets see some pics of your tires, I have a feeling you aren't getting too much outer wear.
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Old 05-03-2021, 03:21 PM   #11
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My strategy is to swap wheels, not alignment settings. I have a second set of wheels that I put on the car when it'll only be on the street for a while. Those wheels carry performance all-season tires with a high UTQG number. The car is much more pleasant to drive - good ride, quiet, etc., and handling limits are still plenty for the street.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:09 PM   #12
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shouldnt have any problems
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:09 PM   #13
tmalaquin
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roostie View Post
My strategy is to swap wheels, not alignment settings. I have a second set of wheels that I put on the car when it'll only be on the street for a while. Those wheels carry performance all-season tires with a high UTQG number. The car is much more pleasant to drive - good ride, quiet, etc., and handling limits are still plenty for the street.
I have a similar setup, I don't think I want to ride my DD setup with more than 3 deg of camber though, steering will feel horrible on uneven surfaces , not to mention premature wear on those 20'' tires that are $$
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Old 05-10-2021, 08:51 AM   #14
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If all this discussion is just to avoid adjusting toe after a camber adjustment, why not just adjust the toe? I have the Vorshlag plates, I have marks for street and track that get the camber where I want from previous measurements.

When I adjust the camber, place the car down (rock it back and forth a bit) and measure toe, lift back up and adjust the rods. I believe each bilateral turn (one sixth of a rotation) is good for about 1/8". Adjusting camber to 3.2 deg puts me toe out about 1/2", so three turns puts me at 1/8" where I want to be. For street do the reverse. The rear is another story - more compromise unless you have toe bars. I leave that at about 2 deg camber all the time. The rear tires wear out so quick on these cars anyway.

I learned this method the hard way when that 1/2" toe out cost me a fairly new set of NT01s.
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