08-19-2018, 10:22 AM | #1 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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where we are NA vs supercharger
I did not want to mess up Vengence's thread so I'll create a new one:
Quote:
My reply thread below
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
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08-19-2018, 10:23 AM | #2 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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VR
Quote:
After the last month or so IMO the edge of a LT4 system BoosterPump, and a 32% cam lobe is 707 RWHP (my goal) as measured on E70. A safer build would be 675 HRWP on E50. I have an M6, the car has a really long 1st gear, and I'm a 100% street guy. As this is my street car. There are these ways to fix such a long 1st gear. 1) change the rear gear to 4.10 upto 4.33 2) stroker with a tight lobe center 110 to 112 3) supercharger I waited a long time for #1 and gave up, a good thing since gears are still not out, unless you go for a Ford 9" IRS setup from DSS, about $8000 all in. Don't click on this if you have a weak heart: http://www.driveshaftshop.com/differ...-and-more-2326 2) The 416 has setup issues with the welded thurst bearing on the main. Till I can see an actual build, I did NOT want to tackle this myself (but I was very close). This build has lots of head room in terms of fuel because no HP is wasted turning a supercharger. About $8000 all in, still need driveshaft / half shafts, etc. 3) supercharger. I did the MOST expensive way: heads, cam 32%, Pistons / rods (next summer), D1x, stage II intercooler., LT4 setup, E85 sensor.. slowly turn up boost to reach my goal of 707 HP. This should be a more dependable setup (less boost) , about $12 grand not including drivetrain, it is NOT as responsive as what could have been done below:... 4) P1X, 3.7 pulley, LT4 fuel, headers and Stage II intercooler and race BOV. This setup is going to be FAR more responsive and far cheaper. Target say 650 HP with a really nice torque curve on 93 octane. I'm sure a PD setup could be done too. https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536022 If I had an auto, I would have done stronger rods, 12.3:1 pistons, stage III cam with 114 to 116 lobe center 7400 RPM shifts, heads, MSD, 103mm, LT, Rotorfab, converter, E85, tune. More than enough very similar to my LS1 Camaro back in the day.....I'd even toss around the Z/28 rod / crank combo.... just saying.. Maybe if I had a time machine, I would have done the auto NA build listed above and just went with 4.33 to 4.88 in a Drive Shaft Shop 9" IRS.... Say $5000 for the engine, $8000 for the IRS... cheaper than where I'm at and I'd have a bullet proof drivetrain...4.33 and a M6 would be heck of fun too. So yes forced induction is NOT cheap, and there are walls both on the fuel system and on the stock piston / rod. If you are doing a strong long term build, all setups have a natural price point. For instance stock short block NA, for me I'd keep to 6800 RPM, and a stage 1 gentle ramp cam, that is just me and that would limit me to 525 to 570 WHP...for oldmen.. For a bolton supercharger and headers 600 WHP would seem to a sweet spot. After that it can get expensive quick. For NA build engine stoker or not.. 600 whp to my mind is about where a DD ends, very dependable IMO, for a built engine and no crazy dual inject ect 700 WHP would be it for a supercharger. It all starts making the $8K for a Ford 9" IRS cheap at some point. If I have more time and with some help I could create a handy dandy chart of what you can expect given $$$$, I'd stop at 9 PSI of boost and 700 WHP, I don't have any experience after that point. Now I sure there are many guys with more stock stuff, less money into pusher more HP to far more HP, please couche this as my DD, street experience... I do have one comment on the DSS 9"... in the 1970s I got a Direct Connection Dana60 for my 440 dart. 4.10 and clutch diff. I raced and drove it as a DD for many many decades, rebuilt the posi twice (very cheap). Best purchase I ever made. So $8K for a bullet proof setup, that even if I decided to sell my car I could still get $5K for... not a bad deal IMO of course. Sure I hope there will be cheaper options out. I'm just saying since it is an inclusive package and it can be sold as it can be unbolted, it ain't out of the range of reality...
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
Last edited by oldman; 08-19-2018 at 05:52 PM. |
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08-19-2018, 11:56 AM | #3 |
Drives: 14 Silverado LTZ Z71, 16 Camaro SS Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jackson, Michigan
Posts: 4,407
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I’d really like to stay on E85 but it kills the fuel system limit. I like E85 because you can make a lot more power with less boost. Will keep it running cooler. And 93 gets up near 4 bucks a gallon compared to 2-2.50
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08-19-2018, 06:00 PM | #4 |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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E50ish for the supercharger and E85 NA. Seems to be the sweet spot. At 700 WHP, it gets really expensive for the supercharger folks, the DI injectors are like $3800 once you past the LT4 limit vs dual inject, which has its own can of worms. It also is right where one really starts wanting the cooling and octane of E85..
I may just install my LT4 pump and injectors, have Pray tune it for E48 (1/2 e85 and 1/2 93 octane E10), and leave the 4.5 pulley (7 PSI) and it puts out what it puts out, look at it again in the next few years. Say 600 WHP... dunno, but it has to be the most expensive route so far for 600 WHP.... LOL..
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
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08-19-2018, 08:51 PM | #5 | |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,789
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Quote:
That is the setup I am going with...for the price I scooped up the Whipple for, I can buy those fuel parts and end up right around what a Whipple setup normally from vendor. Gotta luv buying new parts at a discount. If I was you, I would scoop up that new D1X that is for sale for a solid price.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
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08-19-2018, 09:05 PM | #6 |
Drives: 2023 CT5 Blackwing Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Orlando
Posts: 1,617
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oldman, been following your posts in multiple threads...
Real question...is there a reason you think a S/C is better than an 'all motor' build? From my reading, a 416CID w/LT4 fueling gives ~625whp with no additional weight or heat. You aren't a fan of that idea? I track and AutoX my car and want MOAR power, but avoid additional weight/heat at all costs.
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2017 HBM SS 1LE
Sold 2023 Wave Metallic CT5-V Blackwing M6 |
08-19-2018, 09:11 PM | #7 |
Drives: 17 Camaro SS 1LE & 16 Sierra AT CC Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 2,424
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Most people dont realize though, at around E50 you get about 80% of the HP increase from the E85. After E50 you really may be just chasing 10-30 rwhp of gains on a F/I setup.
I am running a D1SC on a Alky controls dual nozzle meth injection and on about E15 I put down 650rwhp on a very conservative tune that I requested. Shop could have got me over 700rwhp easily but I didnt want to dance around with the piston ring lands breaking and then go down that rabbit hole. Current I run around E15-E20 and my HP Tuners logs show absolutely zero knock at all. I cant complain one bit on the performance increase at all. i was 455rwhp on E85 before the D1SC and now I am 650rwhp. That is a nice and solid 200rwhp gain.
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2019 Corvette Z06 2LZ A8 - Halltech CAI, AWE non-catted X-pipe, Mamo V2 ported TB 592rwhp, bone stock 566rwhp
2017 Camaro SS 1LE - Procharger D1SC w/ Tial 2" BOV & Race intercooler / ARH full length catless headers / Alky meth injection system - 650rwhp on conservative tune SOLD |
08-19-2018, 09:12 PM | #8 |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,789
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Driveability is one...a 416 at 625whp isn't going to drive as nice as a basically Stock LT1 with 8psi making the same power. A built 416 is going to cost more then bolting a blower on and doing LT4 fuel upgrades. NA only makes sense if you are going to do all the labor because the shop rates for motor work is pretty high. Cam installes run 4-5k alone at most reputable shops.
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
08-19-2018, 09:16 PM | #9 | |
Drives: 2016 1SS NFG A8 Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: 46804
Posts: 6,789
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Quote:
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2016 NFG 1SS A8
Options-2SS Leather/NPP Perf. mods-Whipple 2.9/Fuel System/Flex Fuel/103mm TB/Rotofab Big Gulp/Cat Deletes/Corsa NPP Per. times- 10.5 @ 137 w/ 1.8 60ft Full weight on 20's 1200DA |
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08-20-2018, 12:16 AM | #10 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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Quote:
I would be doing more autoX or road race if I had a 416. I don’t intend to race my supercharged SS. I had a supercharged Civic SI for autoX but sold it to pay for two kids in college. IMO, if I knew I could install a 416 kit, I would have done it. 112 center cam big cam. Stage 2+. But I did not want to throw down $4000 and not be able to assemble. I am willing to help anyone in central Texas that wants to try a 416...or I work for slave wages .....
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
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08-20-2018, 12:32 AM | #11 | |
Drives: SS 6 speed of course Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Hilo, HI
Posts: 4,316
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Quote:
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Forged short block, large duration sub .600 lift Cam Motion cam, 7200 RPM fuel cut, Pray Ported Heads, 3.85 pulley D1X, stage II intercooler, DSX secondary low side, DSX E85 sensor, Lingenfelter big bore 2.0 pump, ported front cats, 60608 Borla, LT4 injectors, ZL1 1LE driveshaft and Katech ported TB, ported MSD intake, BTR valvetrain, ARP studs, ProFlow valves, PS4 tires.
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08-20-2018, 01:28 AM | #12 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro 2SS Nightfall Gray vert Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Swansea, IL
Posts: 1,219
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Quote:
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2017 Camaro 2SS vert - Nightfall Gray
Magnuson Heartbeat SC - Tuned by JRE Racing 776whp/745wtq (12psi) 2018 Corvette Z06 vert- Black To be tuned by JRE Racing TBD performance |
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08-20-2018, 04:57 AM | #13 | |
Drives: 17 Camaro SS 1LE & 16 Sierra AT CC Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 2,424
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Quote:
Actually with the flex fuel sensor and the Torque pro app and a BT OBD2 reader, it is really pretty easy to mix the ratio on the fly. At one point I even built a spreadsheet on my phone that got me within 5 points of my actual E rating. If you are starting from pure gas tank it is easy. Tank is 19.8g, lets just say 20g as it wont change the ration much and there is so much variance in Ethanol from the blending facilities. So 2g of E85 on 91/93 octane will net you 91/93 E10. 4g will net you E20, so 10g will net you E50. That part is easy, the hard part is trying to calculate it when the tank is half full going forward then. I know at the straight up half mark that my car will take 10g of fuel to be full. If i wanted E50 then I would put in 5g of E85 first, then top off with 5g of 91/93. This is how I currently stay around E17-E20. When I need 10g I put in my 1.75g-2g of E85 1st, then I top off with 91/93. This helps with blending the fuel in the tank. If the flex fuel table are modified correctly it you can set it to where it only takes .1 of a gallon for the ethanol rating to be re-polled and updated. Then using Torque and a custom pid I can monitor the Ethanol rating from the car without needing to have my laptop with me running HP Tuners.
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2019 Corvette Z06 2LZ A8 - Halltech CAI, AWE non-catted X-pipe, Mamo V2 ported TB 592rwhp, bone stock 566rwhp
2017 Camaro SS 1LE - Procharger D1SC w/ Tial 2" BOV & Race intercooler / ARH full length catless headers / Alky meth injection system - 650rwhp on conservative tune SOLD |
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08-20-2018, 05:00 AM | #14 | |
Drives: 17 Camaro SS 1LE & 16 Sierra AT CC Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 2,424
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Quote:
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2019 Corvette Z06 2LZ A8 - Halltech CAI, AWE non-catted X-pipe, Mamo V2 ported TB 592rwhp, bone stock 566rwhp
2017 Camaro SS 1LE - Procharger D1SC w/ Tial 2" BOV & Race intercooler / ARH full length catless headers / Alky meth injection system - 650rwhp on conservative tune SOLD |
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