[oldman]

I did not want to mess up Vengence's thread so I'll create a new one:

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

The fuel system limitations really hold back the zl1 and especially the SS. Hopefully more solutions become available and at a reasonable price

I would probably be FI by now but it’s hardly worth it over a stout heads cam setup unless I do a complete pricey fuel system upgrade. The cost is insane to make 600+ on E85 reliably. As we can see here a full lt4 system can’t even support 700 rwhp on E85 :(

My reply thread below

[oldman]

VR

On E45 "45% mix due to the limitations present with the factory fuel system. With the E45 fuel blend added, the ZL1 made a final power output of 686rwhp and 720rwtq. "

We don't know if this is SAE or STD, really when we are talking HP limits of the factory fuel system we should talk actual HP hitting the rollers "as measured" CF =1.0. I would assume STD.

After the last month or so IMO the edge of a LT4 system BoosterPump, and a 32% cam lobe is 707 RWHP (my goal) as measured on E70. A safer build would be 675 HRWP on E50.

I have an M6, the car has a really long 1st gear, and I'm a 100% street guy. As this is my street car. There are these ways to fix such a long 1st gear.
1) change the rear gear to 4.10 upto 4.33
2) stroker with a tight lobe center 110 to 112
3) supercharger

I waited a long time for #1 and gave up, a good thing since gears are still not out, unless you go for a Ford 9" IRS setup from DSS, about $8000 all in.
Don't click on this if you have a weak heart:
http://www.driveshaftshop.com/differ...-and-more-2326


2) The 416 has setup issues with the welded thurst bearing on the main. Till I can see an actual build, I did NOT want to tackle this myself (but I was very close). This build has lots of head room in terms of fuel because no HP is wasted turning a supercharger. About $8000 all in, still need driveshaft / half shafts, etc.

3) supercharger. I did the MOST expensive way: heads, cam 32%, Pistons / rods (next summer), D1x, stage II intercooler., LT4 setup, E85 sensor.. slowly turn up boost to reach my goal of 707 HP. This should be a more dependable setup (less boost) , about $12 grand not including drivetrain, it is NOT as responsive as what could have been done below:...

4) P1X, 3.7 pulley, LT4 fuel, headers and Stage II intercooler and race BOV. This setup is going to be FAR more responsive and far cheaper. Target say 650 HP with a really nice torque curve on 93 octane. I'm sure a PD setup could be done too.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=536022

If I had an auto, I would have done stronger rods, 12.3:1 pistons, stage III cam with 114 to 116 lobe center 7400 RPM shifts, heads, MSD, 103mm, LT, Rotorfab, converter, E85, tune. More than enough very similar to my LS1 Camaro back in the day.....I'd even toss around the Z/28 rod / crank combo.... just saying..



Maybe if I had a time machine, I would have done the auto NA build listed above and just went with 4.33 to 4.88 in a Drive Shaft Shop 9" IRS.... Say $5000 for the engine, $8000 for the IRS... cheaper than where I'm at and I'd have a bullet proof drivetrain...4.33 and a M6 would be heck of fun too.

So yes forced induction is NOT cheap, and there are walls both on the fuel system and on the stock piston / rod. If you are doing a strong long term build, all setups have a natural price point. For instance stock short block NA, for me I'd keep to 6800 RPM, and a stage 1 gentle ramp cam, that is just me and that would limit me to 525 to 570 WHP...for oldmen.. For a bolton supercharger and headers 600 WHP would seem to a sweet spot. After that it can get expensive quick. For NA build engine stoker or not.. 600 whp to my mind is about where a DD ends, very dependable IMO, for a built engine and no crazy dual inject ect 700 WHP would be it for a supercharger. It all starts making the $8K for a Ford 9" IRS cheap at some point. If I have more time and with some help I could create a handy dandy chart of what you can expect given $$$$, I'd stop at 9 PSI of boost and 700 WHP, I don't have any experience after that point.

Now I sure there are many guys with more stock stuff, less money into pusher more HP to far more HP, please couche this as my DD, street experience...

I do have one comment on the DSS 9"... in the 1970s I got a Direct Connection Dana60 for my 440 dart. 4.10 and clutch diff. I raced and drove it as a DD for many many decades, rebuilt the posi twice (very cheap). Best purchase I ever made. So $8K for a bullet proof setup, that even if I decided to sell my car I could still get $5K for... not a bad deal IMO of course. Sure I hope there will be cheaper options out. I'm just saying since it is an inclusive package and it can be sold as it can be unbolted, it ain't out of the range of reality...

[ULTRAZLS1]

I’d really like to stay on E85 but it kills the fuel system limit. I like E85 because you can make a lot more power with less boost. Will keep it running cooler. And 93 gets up near 4 bucks a gallon compared to 2-2.50

[oldman]

E50ish for the supercharger and E85 NA. Seems to be the sweet spot. At 700 WHP, it gets really expensive for the supercharger folks, the DI injectors are like $3800 once you past the LT4 limit vs dual inject, which has its own can of worms. It also is right where one really starts wanting the cooling and octane of E85..

I may just install my LT4 pump and injectors, have Pray tune it for E48 (1/2 e85 and 1/2 93 octane E10), and leave the 4.5 pulley (7 PSI) and it puts out what it puts out, look at it again in the next few years. Say 600 WHP... dunno, but it has to be the most expensive route so far for 600 WHP.... LOL..

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

I’d really like to stay on E85 but it kills the fuel system limit. I like E85 because you can make a lot more power with less boost. Will keep it running cooler. And 93 gets up near 4 bucks a gallon compared to 2-2.50

ADM made 680whp running a LT4 blower with LT4 Injectors, LPE Big bore, Zl1 intank on full E85 They gained 60whp swapping the LT4 for the LPE BB. You can get that pump for 1500.00 or another 7-800.00 over the LT4. Not bad for another 60whp.

That is the setup I am going with...for the price I scooped up the Whipple for, I can buy those fuel parts and end up right around what a Whipple setup normally from vendor. Gotta luv buying new parts at a discount. If I was you, I would scoop up that new D1X that is for sale for a solid price.

[MatthewAMEL]

oldman, been following your posts in multiple threads...


Real question...is there a reason you think a S/C is better than an 'all motor' build?


From my reading, a 416CID w/LT4 fueling gives ~625whp with no additional weight or heat. You aren't a fan of that idea?


I track and AutoX my car and want MOAR power, but avoid additional weight/heat at all costs.

[TJay74]

Most people dont realize though, at around E50 you get about 80% of the HP increase from the E85. After E50 you really may be just chasing 10-30 rwhp of gains on a F/I setup.

I am running a D1SC on a Alky controls dual nozzle meth injection and on about E15 I put down 650rwhp on a very conservative tune that I requested. Shop could have got me over 700rwhp easily but I didnt want to dance around with the piston ring lands breaking and then go down that rabbit hole.

Current I run around E15-E20 and my HP Tuners logs show absolutely zero knock at all. I cant complain one bit on the performance increase at all. i was 455rwhp on E85 before the D1SC and now I am 650rwhp.

That is a nice and solid 200rwhp gain.

[KingLT1]

Driveability is one...a 416 at 625whp isn't going to drive as nice as a basically Stock LT1 with 8psi making the same power. A built 416 is going to cost more then bolting a blower on and doing LT4 fuel upgrades. NA only makes sense if you are going to do all the labor because the shop rates for motor work is pretty high. Cam installes run 4-5k alone at most reputable shops.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by TJay74

Most people dont realize though, at around E50 you get about 80% of the HP increase from the E85. After E50 you really may be just chasing 10-30 rwhp of gains on a F/I setup.

I am running a D1SC on a Alky controls dual nozzle meth injection and on about E15 I put down 650rwhp on a very conservative tune that I requested. Shop could have got me over 700rwhp easily but I didnt want to dance around with the piston ring lands breaking and then go down that rabbit hole.

Current I run around E15-E20 and my HP Tuners logs show absolutely zero knock at all. I cant complain one bit on the performance increase at all. i was 455rwhp on E85 before the D1SC and now I am 650rwhp.

That is a nice and solid 200rwhp gain.

I agree E50 is all you need, I just don't want to mix it. I do have a station down the street that now sells E20 for 2.80 a gallon...Prior to your post, I wasn't sure if E20 would work for boost or not.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

oldman, been following your posts in multiple threads...


Real question...is there a reason you think a S/C is better than an 'all motor' build?


From my reading, a 416CID w/LT4 fueling gives ~625whp with no additional weight or heat. You aren't a fan of that idea?


I track and AutoX my car and want MOAR power, but avoid additional weight/heat at all costs.

yep all the reasons I looked into a 416. The only thing that stopped me was the stock thrust bearing is welded to the main, Texas Speed’s kit is balanced with standar bearings , I did not know how hard it was going to be to notch the block for the thrust tabs. Basically no help from any source, either buy a done short block or you are on your own. AMS was the cheapest.

I would be doing more autoX or road race if I had a 416. I don’t intend to race my supercharged SS. I had a supercharged Civic SI for autoX but sold it to pay for two kids in college.

IMO, if I knew I could install a 416 kit, I would have done it. 112 center cam big cam. Stage 2+. But I did not want to throw down $4000 and not be able to assemble. I am willing to help anyone in central Texas that wants to try a 416...or I work for slave wages .....

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

ADM made 680whp running a LT4 blower with LT4 Injectors, LPE Big bore, Zl1 intank on full E85 They gained 60whp swapping the LT4 for the LPE BB. You can get that pump for 1500.00 or another 7-800.00 over the LT4. Not bad for another 60whp.

That is the setup I am going with...for the price I scooped up the Whipple for, I can buy those fuel parts and end up right around what a Whipple setup normally from vendor. Gotta luv buying new parts at a discount. If I was you, I would scoop up that new D1X that is for sale for a solid price.

I’m a little afraid as there are rod failures too at that power level, so my natural over build mentality now is pistons rods,balance and main studs, that is far more than my drop in piston and rod bolt that I was planning on. Texas speed is telling me that studs require a line hone as the mains distort.... all in that is an unplanned 2500 or so.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by oldman

I’m a little afraid as there are rod failures too at that power level, so my natural over build mentality now is pistons rods,balance and main studs, that is far more than my drop in piston and rod bolt that I was planning on. Texas speed is telling me that studs require a line hone as the mains distort.... all in that is an unplanned 2500 or so.

I am in agreement to a point. The JRE Super Street Brawler package has been updated running 11psi on E85 for 750whp. That’s where I am heading. I did drop in pistons now, but I have an over-build mentality too and will probably start planning for the rods, studs, etc..maybe a winter project.

[TJay74]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I agree E50 is all you need, I just don't want to mix it. I do have a station down the street that now sells E20 for 2.80 a gallon...Prior to your post, I wasn't sure if E20 would work for boost or not.

Actually with the flex fuel sensor and the Torque pro app and a BT OBD2 reader, it is really pretty easy to mix the ratio on the fly. At one point I even built a spreadsheet on my phone that got me within 5 points of my actual E rating.

If you are starting from pure gas tank it is easy. Tank is 19.8g, lets just say 20g as it wont change the ration much and there is so much variance in Ethanol from the blending facilities.

So 2g of E85 on 91/93 octane will net you 91/93 E10. 4g will net you E20, so 10g will net you E50. That part is easy, the hard part is trying to calculate it when the tank is half full going forward then.

I know at the straight up half mark that my car will take 10g of fuel to be full. If i wanted E50 then I would put in 5g of E85 first, then top off with 5g of 91/93. This is how I currently stay around E17-E20. When I need 10g I put in my 1.75g-2g of E85 1st, then I top off with 91/93. This helps with blending the fuel in the tank. If the flex fuel table are modified correctly it you can set it to where it only takes .1 of a gallon for the ethanol rating to be re-polled and updated.

Then using Torque and a custom pid I can monitor the Ethanol rating from the car without needing to have my laptop with me running HP Tuners.

[TJay74]

Originally Posted by Drsagacity

I am in agreement to a point. The JRE Super Street Brawler package has been updated running 11psi on E85 for 750whp. That’s where I am heading. I did drop in pistons now, but I have an over-build mentality too and will probably start planning for the rods, studs, etc..maybe a winter project.

The shop that did my Procharger install said the stock rods are good for an easy 1000hp. If I remember right they dont change the rods on their builds until they are going for the 1500+ HP range.