[FastCarFanBoy]

Ford has known exactly what the ZL1 would be since the release of the 6th gen if not earlier. GM does not throw curve balls in their powertrains for the Camaro and Ford would have known the capabilities of the Alpha Camaro the day after it released if they didn't have leaked data before hand.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I wouldn't say Ford had 3-4 years to develop the GT500. I think it was more like a year and a half at this point. Ford didn't foresee anything like the ZL1 coming and I believe they were completely fine with keeping the GT350 and GT350R around. In fact I bet they thought the Shelbys would beat anything GM was going to put out. Then GM slapped them with the SS 1LE, the ZL1, and the ZL1 1LE. That had them like "oh shit" and they started scrambling to get something out that can beat the ZL1. On top of trying to fix the issues with the Shelbys, re-do the GT, build the PP2 and then put out the Bullitt I don't think they had 3-4 years to work on the GT500. At least not the entire time. So I think we'll see an unfinished unrefined product that will cost much more than a ZL1 but might, just might, beat it at something. What that something is could be anyone's guess.

When I retired from GM in '17 I had spent the last 10 years of my career leading the Powertrain Competitor Intelligence team. We were tracking the GT500 since mid 2015. I had photos of camouflaged GT500 mules dating back to late 2015 - early 2016. Unfortunately all of the pictures I personally took stayed with the laptop I turned in when I left (doh!!).

I find myself on the Southfield Expressway (M39) a lot. Ford World HQ is visible from M39 between Michigan Ave. and Ford Rd. People who frequent that section of freeway are likely to see a lot of Ford camouflaged vehicles. I have seen GT500 mules in that area at least a dozen times over the years.

The picture below is not one of mine, it's from Autocar and was published in January 2016. This is the same mule I started seeing near Ford properties in the area around World HQ and their validation center. My pictures were of this same vehicle, though not as clear.


Trust me when I say that Ford has been working on GT500 for at least 4 years. I think that some of the stress between PP2 and GT350 capability is a result of the GT500 being late. They could have introduced a Bullitt or PP2 that out-performed a GT350 if the GT500 was in the showroom, but it wasn't. I'm very certain that was the plan. A result of the GT500 delays was that PP2 got dumbed down a bit (no coolers....not a track car) and the 2019 GT350 got an upgrade to create more separation from the PP2. I am also convinced that much, if not all of the delay was to ensure that the GT500 beats ZL1 and Hellcat. Redeye probably dropped another turd in the GT500 punchbowl.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Ford has known exactly what the ZL1 would be since the release of the 6th gen if not earlier. GM does not throw curve balls in their powertrains for the Camaro and Ford would have known the capabilities of the Alpha Camaro the day after it released if they didn't have leaked data before hand.

True dat. And quite frankly, leaked data is not even required. When I was at GM I bought data from companies like IHS Markit, LMC Automotive, WardsAuto, etc that provide forecasts of what's coming. Ford buys the same data from the same companies. That is why, as I stated in my last post, my team was tracking GT500 since mid-2015. That was when it showed up in the IHS Markit forecast. Now I work at IHS Markit developing the same forecasts that I used to buy, and providing analysis for many of the companies that buy the data.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

T
GM: Do it right the first time. Leave it alone. Tell people that they can race the car and if they have any issue then GM will cover it free of charge no questions asked. Move on to the next project.

Ford: Do it. Offer bits and pieces that have to be tailored. Some options cannot be combined with other options. Make people choose between tech and performance. Halfway thru the model year re-do it but skimp out on something (like coolers). Add a footnote that the car isn't built for racing although it has racing tires on it. Threaten to void the warranty if the vehicle is raced while there is another vehicle in the adjacent lane (definition of "racing") and advise people not to "race" the car.

FCA: Do it. Throw the cheapest tires on it that weren't even good on bone stock LS3 Camaros. Throw more HP at it. Keep the tires. Throw more HP at it again. Keep the same tires except make them wider. Have magazines range in ET by 1 full second.

should be a sticky.....

Also add in, many people change tires buy driving down to discount tires etc. Lot harder to add in coolers and the like, so the cheap tire thing does not bother me as much as the GT350 track pack debacle, the PP2 debacle, oh and you will all note the Ford backers saying well the GT500 did ok in 2015, really what two or three years after it is introduced as a halo car it does "OK". LOL too funny.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

By the time the GT500 hits dealer lots, the zl1 with be 3 years old, so they have a lot of time to get the gt500 right. If it doesn’t have the WOW factor and barely beats the zl1! IMHO, it’s a fail. So they better be bringing it.

I would think so too, this is FOREVER in the auto world, I know buds thinking of trading in their 6th gen, starting to look around.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Are you implying that I'll edit or delete my post? Have I done that yet? I don't have much faith in the upcoming GT500. And I doubt that it'll do what all the Ford guys want it to do. Even if it does, it'll be soo expensive and will have enough markups that you'll have to wonder if the performance will be worth the price. It'll likely be the worst bang for the buck available. It's looking like a rush job that was thrown together but we'll see.

No.

But it’ll nicely sum up all the points you made about the GT500 so we can quickly go through them.

Also, the manual equipped Redeye comment was in reference to it not existing.

[hotlap]

Martin. You are a treasure!

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by oldman

should be a sticky.....

Also add in, many people change tires buy driving down to discount tires etc. Lot harder to add in coolers and the like, so the cheap tire thing does not bother me as much as the GT350 track pack debacle, the PP2 debacle, oh and you will all note the Ford backers saying well the GT500 did ok in 2015, really what two or three years after it is introduced as a halo car it does "OK". LOL too funny.

If you have the chance to get a 2015 GT500... jump on it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

True dat. And quite frankly, leaked data is not even required. When I was at GM I bought data from companies like IHS Markit, LMC Automotive, WardsAuto, etc that provide forecasts of what's coming. Ford buys the same data from the same companies. That is why, as I stated in my last post, my team was tracking GT500 since mid-2015. That was when it showed up in the IHS Markit forecast. Now I work at IHS Markit developing the same forecasts that I used to buy, and providing analysis for many of the companies that buy the data.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

When I retired from GM in '17 I had spent the last 10 years of my career leading the Powertrain Competitor Intelligence team. We were tracking the GT500 since mid 2015. I had photos of camouflaged GT500 mules dating back to late 2015 - early 2016. Unfortunately all of the pictures I personally took stayed with the laptop I turned in when I left (doh!!).

I find myself on the Southfield Expressway (M39) a lot. Ford World HQ is visible from M39 between Michigan Ave. and Ford Rd. People who frequent that section of freeway are likely to see a lot of Ford camouflaged vehicles. I have seen GT500 mules in that area at least a dozen times over the years.

The picture below is not one of mine, it's from Autocar and was published in January 2016. This is the same mule I started seeing near Ford properties in the area around World HQ and their validation center. My pictures were of this same vehicle, though not as clear.


Trust me when I say that Ford has been working on GT500 for at least 4 years. I think that some of the stress between PP2 and GT350 capability is a result of the GT500 being late. They could have introduced a Bullitt or PP2 that out-performed a GT350 if the GT500 was in the showroom, but it wasn't. I'm very certain that was the plan. A result of the GT500 delays was that PP2 got dumbed down a bit (no coolers....not a track car) and the 2019 GT350 got an upgrade to create more separation from the PP2. I am also convinced that much, if not all of the delay was to ensure that the GT500 beats ZL1 and Hellcat. Redeye probably dropped another turd in the GT500 punchbowl.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Ford has known exactly what the ZL1 would be since the release of the 6th gen if not earlier. GM does not throw curve balls in their powertrains for the Camaro and Ford would have known the capabilities of the Alpha Camaro the day after it released if they didn't have leaked data before hand.

Then there is no reason that it should have taken them this long. Chevy took a 1 year break on the ZL1 and here it is 4-5 MYs since the last GT500. So why did they need this much time? It certainly wasn't because they have a lot of trims out because the Camaro has just as many. So how was it that Chevy had the ZL1 out and then the ZL1 1LE while Ford couldn't manage to get the GT500 out? Just curious.

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

No.

But it’ll nicely sum up all the points you made about the GT500 so we can quickly go through them.

Also, the manual equipped Redeye comment was in reference to it not existing.

That's if I'm still even on this forum by the time it gets out and is tested. In the next 6 months I'll be looking to upgrade to a Z06 or GTR or something else. So it really won't matter to me what the GT500 does at that point!!

As far as the Redeye, I wasn't aware there is no manual trans version. Doesn't matter tho. Since you guys are spouting 11.1 and 10.8 as the official time of the Redeye then it looks like the GT500 will have to do better than a 10.8 and I don't think it'll be close to that. 11.1-11.3 is what I'll give it.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I might be wrong but I dont see the GT500 matching a 10.80.

If the 500 has an auto it very well may run the number. We saw what the A10 did for the GT and ZL1 picking up over a half second over the manual versions.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Then there is no reason that it should have taken them this long. Chevy took a 1 year break on the ZL1 and here it is 4-5 MYs since the last GT500. So why did they need this much time? It certainly wasn't because they have a lot of trims out because the Camaro has just as many. So how was it that Chevy had the ZL1 out and then the ZL1 1LE while Ford couldn't manage to get the GT500 out? Just curious.

.....

The “normal” Ford schedule would have the S197 GT500 launch as the last variant just before the S550 launch. That happened. Then it would have the GT350 or some other performance variant launch a year into the S550. That happened. Then I would have expected the GT350 to run 2 or 3 years before going dark and giving way to the GT500 as the last variant of S550. In the meantime, Ford launched Bullitt and kinda strung out the PP2 rollout longer than one would expect. Somewhere along the way they likely re-assessed the GT500 program and determined it needed revision. Maybe the result wasn’t considered a strong enough answer to ZL1 or Hellcat / Redeye. Maybe there were development issues with one or more of the major systems? I’ve heard both as reasons for delay. So GT350 winds up carrying on for an additional 1-1/2 to 2 years while GT500 gets sorted out. It wouldn’t be the first or last time a performance vehicle got delayed.

C8? Some say that the idea of ME Vette was s’posed to have happened with C7. I won’t offer an opinion on that, but it obviously didn’t happen. So then it is apparently going to happen for C8. But a 6-month delay in that program has already been announced. Likewise, Ford has already stated that S650 will be a 2022 program. That’s at least a year later than what the industry would have expected. Delays happen.

[oldman]

Heck I've been hearing about a mid-engine Vette since the 70s or was that the 60s... IMO it will be a disaster. Way too expensive, way out of Chevy's expertise. But I guess if you are at that $$$ level, that may come into play.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That's if I'm still even on this forum by the time it gets out and is tested. In the next 6 months I'll be looking to upgrade to a Z06 or GTR or something else. So it really won't matter to me what the GT500 does at that point!!

As far as the Redeye, I wasn't aware there is no manual trans version. Doesn't matter tho. Since you guys are spouting 11.1 and 10.8 as the official time of the Redeye then it looks like the GT500 will have to do better than a 10.8 and I don't think it'll be close to that. 11.1-11.3 is what I'll give it.

Sort of disappointing that the Challenger RedEye doesn’t offer a manual, but not really surprising.

As far as the times, I expect a Red Eye to get into the 10.7s and a GT500 with an auto (dct or 10sp) to be at least that fast..

The last GT500 touched 11.5s with a manual and a lot less power than the new one is going to roll out with.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The “normal” Ford schedule would have the S197 GT500 launch as the last variant just before the S550 launch. That happened. Then it would have the GT350 or some other performance variant launch a year into the S550. That happened. Then I would have expected the GT350 to run 2 or 3 years before going dark and giving way to the GT500 as the last variant of S550. In the meantime, Ford launched Bullitt and kinda strung out the PP2 rollout longer than one would expect. Somewhere along the way they likely re-assessed the GT500 program and determined it needed revision. Maybe the result wasn’t considered a strong enough answer to ZL1 or Hellcat / Redeye. Maybe there were development issues with one or more of the major systems? I’ve heard both as reasons for delay. So GT350 winds up carrying on for an additional 1-1/2 to 2 years while GT500 gets sorted out. It wouldn’t be the first or last time a performance vehicle got delayed.

C8? Some say that the idea of ME Vette was s’posed to have happened with C7. I won’t offer an opinion on that, but it obviously didn’t happen. So then it is apparently going to happen for C8. But a 6-month delay in that program has already been announced. Likewise, Ford has already stated that S650 will be a 2022 program. That’s at least a year later than what the industry would have expected. Delays happen.

The GT500 went for years straight in the S197 platform. Why suddenly change it especially if they knew the ZL1 was going to have only a 1 year break? That does not make sense. Even with the GT350(R) being available, it just doesn't make sense. But then again, these are reasons why I dislike Ford and the things they do.

With 4-5 years of development and if they had rollers out there back in 2015 then there should be a legit reason why they had to push their release back. Which is why I think they had to pull a rush job on the GT500.

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

The last GT500 touched 11.5s with a manual and a lot less power than the new one is going to roll out with.

But it was solid axle and weighed less than this new one will. Plus more HP does not always mean much better ET. Getting that HP to the ground will prove to be difficult. The Redeye has 797 HP and according to some of the Mustang guys here, that makes it good for a 10.8-11.1 and that is on a platform that is specific for straight line performance. Is the GT500 gonna be built for strictly straight line run or to be a triple threat like the ZL1? If the latter then I doubt it'll match 10.8. If the former then I doubt it'll match the ZL1 around a track.