[rickr9504]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Im gonna start by saying I’m like you however I strongly disagree that the large majority of people in the market are like us. If they were we wouldn’t be getting offered ridiculously high trade in values and the cars wouldn’t be selling for as much as they have been.

People are getting offered ridiculously high trade values because they cannot find new cars on the lot. They are falling back on the used car market. So, yeah most people are like us. Economics 101, offer and demand.

[rickr9504]

Originally Posted by samurai

Even without the production issues the sales are at best half of what both competitors sell (who already had chip shortage issues). Chevrolet prioritizing other vehicles before the Camaro is another big sign that Chevrolet has no interest in the Camaro anymore.

Yes, you may be right but that falls on a different category which is marketing. Chevy is not advertising the Camaro as other manufacturers advertise their cars. Even when the gen 5 cam out, there were little commercials. It was popular because of the transformers movie. Also Chevy wants to go the electric car route and try to jump on the bandwagon like everybody else. They are trying to dictate to the market what people should buy instead of making what people want to buy. And maybe they are right, most people will probably be happy with an electric car and that is to the detriment of the traditional car enthusiast, who loves the big V8, a manual transmission and the smell of gas in their tank.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by detamble13

Number 3 I love your optimism and am hopeful there is an EV I aspire to own one day. I haven't seen it yet.

The current muscle car era was also a rebirth of the original and has redefined what muscle car could mean. The main selling feature for the EV muscle car will be numbers and I don't mean the weight or price. I will be pleasantly surprised if they can match performance, curb weight and price though it doesn't seem likely.

I admit to being hopeful. I know the product people that are still at GM (max respect for Mark Reuss, personally gave us the Gen5 Z28) are not ignoring the same thoughts and comments in this very thread. Yes, the flagship GM has announced so far is a hand build Cadillac that will likely be the least engaging EV imaginable, but GM has also hinted at V Series Cadillacs as well.

If you want a comparison of what is possible, go read the reviews for the Mercedes EQS AMG. I don't find it very attractive, but AMG is all about the engaged performance of MB including the NVH concerns may are expressing. The reviews suggest it doesn't hit a home run (my interpretation) for many of the concerns in this and other threads, but it shows what the AMG division is capable of with a luxury EV and putting their performance spin on it. A great first step, but maybe only a solid single in the "engagement" department.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by detamble13

Number 3 I love your optimism and am hopeful there is an EV I aspire to own one day. I haven't seen it yet.

The current muscle car era was also a rebirth of the original and has redefined what muscle car could mean. The main selling feature for the EV muscle car will be numbers and I don't mean the weight or price. I will be pleasantly surprised if they can match performance, curb weight and price though it doesn't seem likely.

Same here. I think future EVs will quite easily match and exceed ICE performance, some already do, but the issue will be whether you enjoy driving a car no exhaust note and limited driving engagement. They are torquey, quiet and smooth. When you are on the track, you hear the wind and tire noise. Some folks appreciate being able to hear what the tires are doing some would rather not.

If you prefer that raw, visceral feel with engine/exhaust noise, rise and fall through the RPM through the gear shifts and the associated vibration then you will more than likely be unimpressed in a performance EV even if the vehicle pins you in the seat from 0-100mph.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by rickr9504

People are getting offered ridiculously high trade values because they cannot find new cars on the lot. They are falling back on the used car market. So, yeah most people are like us. Economics 101, offer and demand.

But then they are overpaying in the used market since the dealers are selling the cars at an even higher price. They are also going used because theRe are no new cars on the lot. A used 2021 is typically listed higher than its original msrp in todays world. You can currently order a 2022 from some dealers and get it for msrp as long as you are willing to wait. Heck I even found a 2022 for msrp on a lot 100 miles away from me for msrp! It’s an SS 1le and while I would love to upgrade to a 1le, I think I’m going to stick to my original plan of waiting for used zl1 prices to come back CLOSE to normal. I understand it will never come back all the way.

[redcoats1976]

until they can build a sporty,2 door EV at a reasonable price,my 5th gen camaro is doomed to be on the road forever.dont want no steenkin 4 door...

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by rickr9504

Yes, you may be right but that falls on a different category which is marketing. Chevy is not advertising the Camaro as other manufacturers advertise their cars. Even when the gen 5 cam out, there were little commercials. It was popular because of the transformers movie. Also Chevy wants to go the electric car route and try to jump on the bandwagon like everybody else. They are trying to dictate to the market what people should buy instead of making what people want to buy. And maybe they are right, most people will probably be happy with an electric car and that is to the detriment of the traditional car enthusiast, who loves the big V8, a manual transmission and the smell of gas in their tank.

Chevy has never really been into marketing. Hell, they also don't advertise much about their Silverado/Suburban which is probably one of their more profitable platforms. When I talk to someone that's obviously a Ford guy and they claim how F150s outsell Chevy Silverados, I have to remind them that sure Ford spends so much money to make their F150 look like "America's best selling", but then GM sells more full sized regular duty trucks but badges them with GMC/Silverado badges. That's where GM is slick. If you're spending more money to sell a car just so that it sits at "Number 1", then are you really being profitable? GM has a strategy and works within that strategy often.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

But then they are overpaying in the used market since the dealers are selling the cars at an even higher price. They are also going used because theRe are no new cars on the lot. A used 2021 is typically listed higher than its original msrp in todays world. You can currently order a 2022 from some dealers and get it for msrp as long as you are willing to wait. Heck I even found a 2022 for msrp on a lot 100 miles away from me for msrp! It’s an SS 1le and while I would love to upgrade to a 1le, I think I’m going to stick to my original plan of waiting for used zl1 prices to come back CLOSE to normal. I understand it will never come back all the way.

i've been thinking along the same lines too (although my current boring plan is simply to trade my current car in for an ordered 2023 ss 1le) .... i think used prices will continue to be high since the chip shortage caused such a supply disruption, i'm guessing an ordered zl1 will be a better value than used.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Hops

i've been thinking along the same lines too (although my current boring plan is simply to trade my current car in for an ordered 2023 ss 1le) .... i think used prices will continue to be high since the chip shortage caused such a supply disruption, i'm guessing an ordered zl1 will be a better value than used.

Agreed. I don't think we will see any decrease in prices. Even if supply improves a bit it will probably not make a difference for the Camaro. It is not like GM is going to start cranking out a bunch of Camaros all of a sudden. They will more than likely allocate their chip supply toward higher volume and more profitable vehicles. Then factor in inflation, so even if supply improved and you see some level of discounting, it will likely be offset with increase prices. I also think they dealers are really enjoying the profits selling at or over MSRP and they will try to keep this going as long as they can.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Agreed. I don't think we will see any decrease in prices. Even if supply improves a bit it will probably not make a difference for the Camaro. It is not like GM is going to start cranking out a bunch of Camaros all of a sudden. They will more than likely allocate their chip supply toward higher volume and more profitable vehicles. Then factor in inflation, so even if supply improved and you see some level of discounting, it will likely be offset with increase prices. I also think they dealers are really enjoying the profits selling at or over MSRP and they will try to keep this going as long as they can.

Here’s why we shouldn’t expect prices to drop much if at all when chips become available. Suppliers are hurting and will need price increases to stay afloat. Assuming the automakers do come to the table with price increases for suppliers, they’ll need to pass those increases along.

Imagine if you are the supplier for seatbelts. You don’t need chips to make seatbelts. But if the cars you supply seatbelts for aren’t getting built for lack of chips, you have to shut down and you have no revenue to cover fixed costs. Spread that across the entire supply base. That’s where we are now.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Here’s why we shouldn’t expect prices to drop much if at all when chips become available. Suppliers are hurting and will need price increases to stay afloat. Assuming the automakers do come to the table with price increases for suppliers, they’ll need to pass those increases along.

Imagine if you are the supplier for seatbelts. You don’t need chips to make seatbelts. But if the cars you supply seatbelts for aren’t getting built for lack of chips, you have to shut down and you have no revenue to cover fixed costs. Spread that across the entire supply base. That’s where we are now.

I've heard chip manufacturers claim that auto manufacturers need to stop relying on older architecture. Which let's be honest, auto manufacturers have been dragging their feet when it comes to tech. Just look at the head units that they put in vehicles. How many new cars have you been in where the touch screen is about as responsive as a 5-10 year old iPad? If these manufacturers would start putting in better, more advanced tech then I am guessing chip makers could've continued supplying them. My guess is that chip manufacturers had to limit their production to the more profitable processors, and since the U.S. has essentially shipped manufacturing overseas, those microprocessors aren't prioritized. One of the things I do like about some of our recent laws is that they've tried to prioritize the U.S. being able to sustain itself and not rely so much on other countries. Hopefully the U.S. auto industry catches up with other industries.

[Number 3]

The future done snuck up on us while we weren’t looking

The Porsche Taycan EV outsold the 911 sports car in 2021

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The future done snuck up on us while we weren’t looking

The Porsche Taycan EV outsold the 911 sports car in 2021

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 911 and 718 have limited allocations for each market. I know a couple of people who waited or are waiting for their 718, and 911 is probably the same way. I don't think it's because there isn't enough demand, it's because they can only make so many of them. These are the real, special Porsches.

I know for Panamera and Cayenne, they just crank them out as many as they can as long as they sell. Taycan likely falls into this camp. These are the mass-produced stuff that isn't that special. Resale value will reflect that.

Like, when you go to a Porsche dealer, you don't buy a new 911 or 718 off the lot. There is a couple for test driving, but you have to order your own if you want one. Cayenne and Panamera? They have quite a few of them on the lot and you can drive one home the same day.

So... Not all that meaningful, as far as I am concerned.

Also, a 4-door outsold a 2-door? What a surprise! Oh wait, that's like saying Camry outsold 488 by tenfold.

[The_DarkKnight]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The future done snuck up on us while we weren’t looking

The Porsche Taycan EV outsold the 911 sports car in 2021

limiting factor in 911 production is the factory capacity, they can only work 2 shifts, neighbors dont. want noise from trucks all night long, Taycan built next door in brand new modern factory, more capacity there