[1fujifilm]

Originally Posted by Rayknee

Hey all,

I got my Camaro about a month ago and absolutely love it. I've got roughly 1,400 miles on it and am looking forward to driving it again come spring.

Anyhow, I've been reading up on the whole "catch can" debate and I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense. My friend has a BMW 335i thats tuned and has had a catch can since I believe 2500 miles. It now has 65,000 on it and he just recently did the Walnut blast due to carbon buildup. Now, I understand it's tuned but the catch can obviously didn't really prevent the problem. It maybe prolonged it, but it certainly didn't stop it.

Then on the other side of the spectrum another buddy of mine has a '15 Denali 6.2 that he drives hard and uses like a truck. No catch can, but has a Borla exhaust that was on it at dealer delivery. It currently has 28,000 some odd miles.

Now here is the rub, my buddy with the Denali took it to a test and tune one night when he had 3300 miles on it and then this past month.

The truck got faster between both visits. Consistent over multiple passes. Ambient conditions were similar and it was the same track. This being a truck that has NOT had an easy life. The oil is changed based on the computer...it lives in a dusty, wintry environment and is used year round like a truck. It's probably also had 87 octane crap gas in it at various points. Yet, the degradation in power that is often spoken of hasn't been really noticed. I guess you could argue that it would be faster still if it was port injected and not have any build-up at all...but my point stands. The truck isn't getting slower or losing gas mileage.

So I see these two scenarios...and I wonder if the catch-can really truly is necessary. I know my two stories are anecdotal but it's still real world experience. So I'm leaning toward NOT using a catch can and wanted to hear if others are doing the same.

Let me be clear, I'm not bashing catch-cans or the vendors that make them. I'm sure it's a quality product and I know people believe in them. I respect the vendors here that have given their time and efforts to educate on the benefits of their system. I'm just leaning towards running top-tier fuel and early synthetic changes and driving the car hard vs going catch-can. To me that might be enough to mitigate the concern for the five or so years I plan to own this car. So I want hear from the people that are driving these cars that have not gone down the catch-can path. How is your car running, what's the mileage...do you have any concerns??

I do not have a catcher.
I will own my SS Camaro Vert for 35 months then get rid of it and buy another one just like I did six months ago.

Bear

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by 1fujifilm

I do not have a catcher.
I will own my SS Camaro Vert for 35 months then get rid of it and buy another one just like I did six months ago.

Bear

In your case, just enjoy the car and don't worry about it.


Both AOS are under the hood of this Motor Trend press car. Just follow the PCV hoses.

[00 Trans Ram]

Originally Posted by Ponyeatr16ss

I'll give it to the catch can people they makin a killin off you gullibles.

Sez the guy who hasn't modded his car.

[6spdhyperblue]

What if I told you the coking wasn't from the unburnt oil from the pcv but from the puff of burnt air from the cylinder the back into the intake tract after the intake valve opens. The hot deposits latch onto the relatively cool material

I'd run one to reduce diluting the intake charge and try to minimize knock. Not to control coking

[Elite Engineering]

Here's a good, quick way to see how beneficial this can be:

Take 15 minutes and remove your IM and inspect your own valves personally up close and see. Take some pictures and post them.


Now, as for the cause of the coking. No catchcan can prevent all of the coking, but can reduce the rate of formation to a fraction of running w/out a proper system. Now, Nicul15 brings up a good point on this. There is app. 15% of the coking caused by the back filling of burnt exhaust gasses by variable valve timing events to emulate the function of the EGR valves that are no longer part of new engines due to common failures of them. But, the vast majority of the coking is caused by the oil mist it'self as well as other contaminates making contact with the extremely hot valves. Almost none comes from the valve seals as they do their job well, but if you look at your own valves, you will see how with every stroke, the "gunk" is pushed down on the stem as the deposits are drawn up into the guide prematurely wearing them not unlike the days of carbureted engines in the 60's and 70's when coking was an issue, but not nearly as severe as now with GDI. (this was the reason the Gov mandated minimum detergent additives be in all fuel sold for street/highway use). So, there are several things to help reduce the rate and severity of the coking, and a truly effective air/oil separating crankcase evac system is the most effective. The engine oil used is as well. The fuel used has absolutely NO impact at all. Understand folks, one of our Engineers works very closely with one of the largest Synthetic lubricant companies in the World on testing both in the lab and on the road with a fleet of new test vehicles and see;s this all first hand as solutions are worked. And the coking, is NOT the worst side effect of GDI. The contamination and dilution of the engine oil is, and that is the main reason engine warranties form most auto makers have reversed the trend of longer and longer periods. GM, Ford, BMW, and others have dropped from 100k miles, to 36k miles currently. The premature wear and component failures in GDI engines is well documented. And this is where the lubrication labs are working to find solutions more so than the coking. The coking is something that is easy to see even at 5k miles or less, but the internal wear is not evident until severe. And finally, yes, most automakers are installing a form of catchcan on most vehicle engines today with the most common being a sump or containment area integrated into the intake air bridge assy. The next is internally separating the oil from the PCV vapors with internal baffle and separation devices, but this also separates and retains the contaminates that the PCV system in the past removed pretty effectively before they could settle and mix with the oil. There is no way to separate and retain the oil most alone w/out also trapping and retaining the damaging compounds. Then as the Gen5 1LE had a cleanside unit, and the performance optioned V8 Gen6's have 2 catchcans from the factory, but they are only empty plastic containers and no way to drain w/out removing and doing so. So the automakers will probably never accept the cost of a truly effective system or the consumer the need to drain these periodically either.


Other changes being attempted are the addition of small port injectors back into the intake ports, but this is too little to make a huge difference, and also contributes to more knock retard as a combustible mixture is again present during the compression stroke. The variable valve timing and fueling events in an attempt to have fuel make contact with the valves back sides has had little to know improvement. So the trend most are using is to either delete the Positive evacuation function of the PCV system as the new LGX V6 does, or to separate and retain not only the oil but the contaminates that cause wear and dirty the oil rapidly. Both result in much shorter engine life due to the accelerated wear.


We are hear to provide the data, photos, dyno testing, oil analysis, and more to show form a scientific and technical aspect of all of this. Not to make false claims.

There's a ton of misinformation out there, especially when a "talking head" (PR exec) form an automaker is asked about these issues. So throw out all of the hearsay and only present facts and data. These are not the engines of the past, this is a new era and it is not going away. GDI is here to stay as mandated, and all automakers are working to find simple solutions...of which there are none to date. Only bandaids.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Here's a good, quick way to see how beneficial this can be:

Take 15 minutes and remove your IM and inspect your own valves personally up close and see. Take some pictures and post them.


Now, as for the cause of the coking. No catchcan can prevent all of the coking, but can reduce the rate of formation to a fraction of running w/out a proper system. Now, Nicul15 brings up a good point on this. There is app. 15% of the coking caused by the back filling of burnt exhaust gasses by variable valve timing events to emulate the function of the EGR valves that are no longer part of new engines due to common failures of them. But, the vast majority of the coking is caused by the oil mist it'self as well as other contaminates making contact with the extremely hot valves. Almost none comes from the valve seals as they do their job well, but if you look at your own valves, you will see how with every stroke, the "gunk" is pushed down on the stem as the deposits are drawn up into the guide prematurely wearing them not unlike the days of carbureted engines in the 60's and 70's when coking was an issue, but not nearly as severe as now with GDI. (this was the reason the Gov mandated minimum detergent additives be in all fuel sold for street/highway use). So, there are several things to help reduce the rate and severity of the coking, and a truly effective air/oil separating crankcase evac system is the most effective. The engine oil used is as well. The fuel used has absolutely NO impact at all. Understand folks, one of our Engineers works very closely with one of the largest Synthetic lubricant companies in the World on testing both in the lab and on the road with a fleet of new test vehicles and see;s this all first hand as solutions are worked. And the coking, is NOT the worst side effect of GDI. The contamination and dilution of the engine oil is, and that is the main reason engine warranties form most auto makers have reversed the trend of longer and longer periods. GM, Ford, BMW, and others have dropped from 100k miles, to 36k miles currently. The premature wear and component failures in GDI engines is well documented. And this is where the lubrication labs are working to find solutions more so than the coking. The coking is something that is easy to see even at 5k miles or less, but the internal wear is not evident until severe. And finally, yes, most automakers are installing a form of catchcan on most vehicle engines today with the most common being a sump or containment area integrated into the intake air bridge assy. The next is internally separating the oil from the PCV vapors with internal baffle and separation devices, but this also separates and retains the contaminates that the PCV system in the past removed pretty effectively before they could settle and mix with the oil. There is no way to separate and retain the oil most alone w/out also trapping and retaining the damaging compounds. Then as the Gen5 1LE had a cleanside unit, and the performance optioned V8 Gen6's have 2 catchcans from the factory, but they are only empty plastic containers and no way to drain w/out removing and doing so. So the automakers will probably never accept the cost of a truly effective system or the consumer the need to drain these periodically either.


Other changes being attempted are the addition of small port injectors back into the intake ports, but this is too little to make a huge difference, and also contributes to more knock retard as a combustible mixture is again present during the compression stroke. The variable valve timing and fueling events in an attempt to have fuel make contact with the valves back sides has had little to know improvement. So the trend most are using is to either delete the Positive evacuation function of the PCV system as the new LGX V6 does, or to separate and retain not only the oil but the contaminates that cause wear and dirty the oil rapidly. Both result in much shorter engine life due to the accelerated wear.


We are hear to provide the data, photos, dyno testing, oil analysis, and more to show form a scientific and technical aspect of all of this. Not to make false claims.

There's a ton of misinformation out there, especially when a "talking head" (PR exec) form an automaker is asked about these issues. So throw out all of the hearsay and only present facts and data. These are not the engines of the past, this is a new era and it is not going away. GDI is here to stay as mandated, and all automakers are working to find simple solutions...of which there are none to date. Only bandaids.

Link us to your bolt in kit for these cars as asked in here a few times...

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showth...480249&page=10


...and FYI the powertrain warranty on these cars is not 36K, it is 60K.