[cjfeola]

So I just bought a Summit White 2016 1LT Convertible, and I couldn't be happier. But I almost bought a Mustang instead, and I wonder if this might explain some of what's going on with Camaro sales.

I've been following the 16 Camaro convertible since I happened to see a video of it last summer. My fav sub $100k car is the Jag F Type. As soon as I saw that video of the V6 Camaro vert I'm thinking "That's an F Type for half the price."

But when I started shopping them this spring I found that the V6 Camaro was way more expensive than the V6 Mustang or Challenger. That's because both of those have the V6 as the base engine. The Challenger doesn't offer a turbo 4, and Ford has decided to make the turbo 4 the middle model to support the whole EcoBoost thing.

I was trading in a BMW i6/M5 (X5), and didn't really want an i4. I actually speced out a Mustang convertible with the dealer, and while I was thinking about it, decided to go back to Classic Chevrolet one more time and drive a 1LT i4. Boy am I glad I did. A week later it was in my garage. (BTB the Classic Chevrolet people are great, especially Ken Knezek. I drove a Corvette and a half dozen Camaros in different configurations between May and July before buying this one in August, and they were unfailing helpful, pleasant and patient. Feola say check em out if you're in DFW.)

So here's my theory: Camaro/Mustang/Challenger buyers tend to be car people and interested in the engines. (That's why we don't buy Prius and Volts) I wondering how many folks are shopping the V6s against each other, which would mean the base Mustang and Challenger would be compared to the mid-level Camaro. The price difference then is something like $4k-$6k.

Another thing: The i4 Turbo is VERY European. Coming from a BMW this suits me, but I wonder if it isn't a turnoff for people looking to trade in, say, a 2012 ponycar. Here's what I mean: Like my BMW i6, my new Camaro be mozying below 3,000 RPM, at which point we be taking off like a bat outta hell. Keep it on the boil and it MOVES -- it has more torque than the V6. Which is tons of fun if you're driving the M6, like I am. But for folks who are used to torque down low...it's gonna feel sluggish.

My two cents, for what they are worth.

Cjf

[reeper]

Most American 'car' people perfer V8's

[90503]

Not sure about all those pricing numbers, but my understanding is the V-6 in the Camaro is a $1600 option. That's the only difference in price between the v-6 and t-4 Camaro. All other options and prices would be the same.

Not sure how the V-6 Camaro could be anymore expensive than the $1600 over a similarly equipped Turbo 4.

[cellsafemode]

So pretending that price up front and aftermarket price, no marketing, and along with a half decade of poaching the customer base to leaner / cheaper pony cars.

I dont know if i buy the alt theory above.

Most buyers of pony cars are not really car people. They're not going to mod the car. They're looking for a car that looks fast and they dont really care how it performs.

To these people a couple thousand dollars is what determines if they come out with a Camaro or a Mustang or a Charger. Unfortunately, the camaro is on the wrong side of that couple thousand dollars. These people make up the masses and will steer the sales numbers.

There is a core group that exist to keep the culture alive but they're a minority. They're like the fans that go all out and show up at sports events paying a premium and in body paint. Those guys are visible, they're the spirit of the sport. But they're a drop in the bucket when it comes to dollars that the sport depends on ....those are the millions of couch potatoes at home watching it on tv.

[cjfeola]

Originally Posted by reeper

Most American 'car' people perfer V8's

Truth. But they buy the cheaper engines!

[cjfeola]

Originally Posted by 90503

Not sure about all those pricing numbers, but my understanding is the V-6 in the Camaro is a $1600 option. That's the only difference in price between the v-6 and t-4 Camaro. All other options and prices would be the same.

Not sure how the V-6 Camaro could be anymore expensive than the $1600 over a similarly equipped Turbo 4.

Sure, if you're ordering. I was shopping leftover 2016s. The V6s all also had the upgraded exhaust ($899), the RS package ($2,000) and many had the tech package on top of that.

Cjf

[cjfeola]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

So pretending that price up front and aftermarket price, no marketing, and along with a half decade of poaching the customer base to leaner / cheaper pony cars.

I dont know if i buy the alt theory above.

Most buyers of pony cars are not really car people. They're not going to mod the car. They're looking for a car that looks fast and they dont really care how it performs.

To these people a couple thousand dollars is what determines if they come out with a Camaro or a Mustang or a Charger. Unfortunately, the camaro is on the wrong side of that couple thousand dollars. These people make up the masses and will steer the sales numbers.

There is a core group that exist to keep the culture alive but they're a minority. They're like the fans that go all out and show up at sports events paying a premium and in body paint. Those guys are visible, they're the spirit of the sport. But they're a drop in the bucket when it comes to dollars that the sport depends on ....those are the millions of couch potatoes at home watching it on tv.

We're kind of making the same point, I think. Remember, the Camaro was outselling the Mustang pretty handily until the latest Mustang was introduced. So what's different this time? The Camaro is the only pony with an i4 Turbo as the base engine. And while everyone loves Zs and such, the majority of sales are the base model, IIRC.

Cjf

[Thompyt]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Most buyers of pony cars are not really car people. They're not going to mod the car. They're looking for a car that looks fast and they don't really care how it performs.

To these people a couple thousand dollars is what determines if they come out with a Camaro or a Mustang or a Charger.

This.

I went through a 2015 Mustang GT PP, 2015 Charger V6, 2015 Challenger V6 before getting a Camaro. I still have the GT, so I can readily compare the Pony cars. When shopping for mine, I looked at the cost/benefits and what I could afford. or wanted to afford. My 2SS still cost 3K more than the GT.

[cjfeola]

Originally Posted by Thompyt

This.

I went through a 2015 Mustang GT PP, 2015 Charger V6, 2015 Challenger V6 before getting a Camaro. I still have the GT, so I can readily compare the Pony cars. When shopping for mine, I looked at the cost/benefits and what I could afford. or wanted to afford. My 2SS still cost 3K more than the GT.

I didn't really look at the SS, so I can't comment on it beyond I thought the pricing was crazy; convertibles were going for MORE than Corvettes in July.

At the low end, I got a good deal. I caught the big August rebates. And the equipment is just better; I have a backup camera, which I really wanted. The Mustang either didn't have a backup camera available with the V6, or it was only available with some hideous and expensive nav package, IIRC.

Drove the base V8 Challenger (I only buy sticks, and the Challenger does not have one with the V6.) I thought that was an amazing car - reminds me of the old Caddy Coupe de Ville. But I REALLY wanted a convertible, and couldn't be happier with the Camaro.

How's the equipment on your Mustang compared to your 2SS? Does you Mustang have the Track Pack?

Cjf

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by cjfeola

We're kind of making the same point, I think. Remember, the Camaro was outselling the Mustang pretty handily until the latest Mustang was introduced. So what's different this time? The Camaro is the only pony with an i4 Turbo as the base engine. And while everyone loves Zs and such, the majority of sales are the base model, IIRC.

Cjf

we're not. You're saying they're not buying the base model because of the engine. The engine doesn't matter to the majority of people who will make up the sales for the car. Those people are buying on looks and price. Looks and price. The i4 doesn't factor into the equation for the majority of buyers.

Plus, i'm not sure about the mustang but the camaro is basically a 2 seater with a pretend rear seat. That kind of limits your market to either non-family buyers or second car buyers. Even though it was a bit of a pain, my rear seats saw at least some use in my 2001 camaro driving friends around every now and then. That's not an option in my current car. But i'm totally fine with that. Though since i'm on this forum, I understand that i make up such a tiny % of the camaro buying market because we're a tiny circle inside the circle of car enthusiasts which is itself, a tiny circle inside the total market of camaro buyers.

You want to really know why sales are the way they are, find some soccer mom's driving around 2016 base model mustang's. Ask them why they didn't buy a camaro. The mindset of those people are alien to anyone on the forum.

[cjfeola]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

we're not. You're saying they're not buying the base model because of the engine. The engine doesn't matter to the majority of people who will make up the sales for the car. Those people are buying on looks and price. Looks and price. The i4 doesn't factor into the equation for the majority of buyers.

Plus, i'm not sure about the mustang but the camaro is basically a 2 seater with a pretend rear seat. That kind of limits your market to either non-family buyers or second car buyers. Even though it was a bit of a pain, my rear seats saw at least some use in my 2001 camaro driving friends around every now and then. That's not an option in my current car. But i'm totally fine with that. Though since i'm on this forum, I understand that i make up such a tiny % of the camaro buying market because we're a tiny circle inside the circle of car enthusiasts which is itself, a tiny circle inside the total market of camaro buyers.

You want to really know why sales are the way they are, find some soccer mom's driving around 2016 base model mustang's. Ask them why they didn't buy a camaro. The mindset of those people are alien to anyone on the forum.

No, the Mustang rear seat is just as useless -- maybe more. I don't know. I won't get in the back of either.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've just finished shopping all three. And all the other factors you cite were true for the Mustang and Camaro between 2009-2014, and the Camaro handily outsold the Mustang. As far as I can see, the Camaro being the only one with an i4 Turbo as the base engine is the only real difference in this sales reversal.

I'd be really curious to see EcoBoost Mustang sales figures. I'm betting they are third, well behind the base V6 and top-of-the-line V8.

I always enjoy a good debate.

Cjf

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by cjfeola

No, the Mustang rear seat is just as useless -- maybe more. I don't know. I won't get in the back of either.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've just finished shopping all three. And all the other factors you cite were true for the Mustang and Camaro between 2009-2014, and the Camaro handily outsold the Mustang. As far as I can see, the Camaro being the only one with an i4 Turbo as the base engine is the only real difference in this sales reversal.

I'd be really curious to see EcoBoost Mustang sales figures. I'm betting they are third, well behind the base V6 and top-of-the-line V8.

I always enjoy a good debate.

Cjf

http://blog.caranddriver.com/warning...-living-color/

your numbers seem a bit off for camaro beating mustang. First two years after the hiatus, yes, we were on top. We also had big blockbuster commercials ...err I mean movies, advertising it and there's the novelty of bringing back something from the dead.

Then it balanced. ...then mustang destroyed in 2014 and again in 2015. (talking about global sales here not just US).

The Camaro hasn't bested the Mustang in sales since 2011 to any significant amount.

[Mud Z06]

I agree with those saying price. Also the mustang refresh came out before the Camaro so it is more well-known.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by reeper

Most American 'car' people perfer V8's

And that's why sales volumes are low