[Petrol Head]

I know, my point was that they were porky. The Challenger is an intermediate and still porky. The Camaro could have been heavier and thus cheaper and I wouldn’t have complained. That’s my point. When it comes to “fast, light, cheap, and safe pick three” I would have been fine with more steel to lower the price so they’d sell more.

[AZCamaroFan]

camaros and mustangs were small in the 60's. dodge's weren't.
the camaro and mustang are just about the only cars trying to be exactly what they were 50 years ago which is what creates problems with their size with crash standards and way more packed into them now. a 6thgen is 4 inches longer than a 1st gen and heavier yet there is less room inside because of those reasons.

[genxer]

I don't want to get lost arguing pedantics here. The Dodges come from an old luxury parts bin. They weren't intended as cheap either. I don't disagree with more steel, for base cars. But, a Number 3 style point, it has to be matched to easier to park, more visiblity, maybe more trunk. For this gen, the aluminum is in the right place.

[JeffFox]

Originally Posted by Drews

Wow... great post JeffFox!

I enjoy the forum and find this thread quite interesting. Many good points and lots of passion. Bravo everyone. Hope to be on the track soon. Track Days in my Camaro are an absolute blast 😄😄😄😄😀😀😀😀😀. Very pleased to own mine!

[Drews]

I also am very proud to own a 6th gen Camaro... its a one-of-a-kind car that not everyone has a privilege to own or drive.

AZCamaroFan has a very good point comparing 1st gen Camaro to current 6th gen in regards to interior and cargo space... big difference.

Back in the days of the '60's they didn't have to conceal air-bags and all the electronic hard-ware to make everything work.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

camaros and mustangs were small in the 60's. dodge's weren't.
the camaro and mustang are just about the only cars trying to be exactly what they were 50 years ago which is what creates problems with their size with crash standards and way more packed into them now. a 6thgen is 4 inches longer than a 1st gen and heavier yet there is less room inside because of those reasons.

This picture comes to mind. It illustrates well how much more there is to cars now. The passenger space appear less in the new model even though it is considerably bigger

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The LT1 and LT4 are cheap because they are maximizing its volume. GM would never build anything like the GT500 in the Camaro.

What is wrong with maximizing ROI by sharing parts and components? Wasn’t it Frod that hit upon the MOD Motor approach several years back? Also, what does Frod put in their top of the range GT? Well it’s not “bespoke” correct? Both manufactures are in the volume business not limited run cars with “bespoke” components.

As for sales potential Chevy decided to build a world class performance pony car and Frod didn’t and still hasn’t. Of course, this market segment will be limited to the folks that want either the image of owning a hardcore sports car. Or folks like myself that want a great car for track work without the usual headaches associated with heavy track use. And for this purpose, the Camaro 1LE is better than anything remotely close price wise.

There is no need for Chevy to endow Camaro with “bespoke” parts as ZLE/ZL1 already outperforms GT500 with a six year old car and “half ass” engine to paraphrase your earlier comment. Why bother at this point adding LT5 and thousands of dollars to Camaro price tag? Noting to gain except for additional overhead.

Chevy benchmarked the performance requirements they were targeting for this segment. Did the design, engineering and development work, produced the end product, tested, revised where necessary, went GA and moved on. Like they always do for this and Corvette segments. Unlike Frod there aren’t major issues with these cars that require continued development after release to fix said issues. You call the addition of IRS, Suspension, Tires, HP/TQ excitement and innovation. Let’s call it what it really is. Catching up to the competition. Conversation overhead at Frod offices…“Hey let’s build a better Mustang and call it GT350/R, that will take care of those damn Camaro’s”. Not exactly, try again. Hey, we are exciting and innovative…again. Are we there yet? Almost. You get the point right?

Last Gen Z/28 was a great concept that failed miserably from a sales perspective. Yet as you mentioned was a good performer but who exactly was the target market? Do you honestly believe any of the Porsche faithful cross shopped a Z/28? Doubtful. Typical Corvette buyers ran as soon as they found out the car was de-contented. GM focus groups and alleged customers balked at the entry price and yet here we are with people pledging “I’d buy a LT5 top of the run Camaro." Sure they would. I for one am surprised you are not already in a Mustang the way you go on about GM/Chevy and all the “pitfalls and issues” endlessly.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Yeah ...especially when you're slow

Yeh, I've heard slow people tell me that.

[Petrol Head]

Show rush hour traffic on the 405 in LA at 5:00 in the afternoon. Show everyone's faces. They're all in their SUVs, family sedans, electrics, hybrids, and econoboxes with scowls on their face as nobody is going anywhere, and it's hot and miserable out......

Then it gets to the 2020 Camaro SS. The girl - yes, I said girl - in it has the biggest smile and she's laughing almost hysterically. That's when Mountain's Mississippi Queen kicks in and the announcer says "Chevy Camaro SS - because life's too short not to enjoy sitting in traffic"

[rocket403]

1970 Challenger was an intermediate platform with a curb weight of 3800lbs

1970 Chevelle was 3840lbs

with all the changes the current Dodge is 600lbs heaver

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Yeh, I've heard slow people tell me that.

Don't feel bad. I’m sure they aren’t judging you.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by rocket403

1970 Challenger was an intermediate platform with a curb weight of 3800lbs

1970 Chevelle was 3840lbs

with all the changes the current Dodge is 600lbs heaver

3619 lbs - 2020 LT1 manual
3720 lbs - 1967 SS 396

The 1967 ran 14.5 @ 99 mph.

Pretty cool

https://musclecars.howstuffworks.com...aro-ss-396.htm

https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us...2020.tab1.html

[AZCamaroFan]

i know that 's a big block but i've never read about 67's weighing that much. the base cars were closer to 3,000 pounds.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

i know that 's a big block but i've never read about 67's weighing that much. the base cars were closer to 3,000 pounds.

Here is a C&D article from back in the day that lists the small block at 3,269 lbs. The big block would have stronger rear, transmission, brakes, cooling, etc.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...d-test-review/