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Old 09-24-2018, 12:37 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
Yeah, no doubt the WORST Mustang for the money.
I would have to agree. The price as tested in the LL was $51,770. That's a pretty hefty price for "not a track car" with track tires that overheats the diff when pushed hard. At that price, I would be looking hard for a GT350 at MSRP or lower. But, then I would have to worry about oil consumption or engine failure.

These latest Mustangs keep falling into the "close but no cigar" category. Sure hope they hit it out of the park with the GT500. They need it...
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:03 PM   #72
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It lost MT's driver's car comparison badly. Who would buy this car? It reeks of desperation.
The ZR1 finished just above it , so how credible are those results?

Also it makes sense for Ford to leave coolers off the PP2... yes it sucks for 1% who want to track it ,but it keeps it from costing them GT350 sales and it allows them to claim the car can run similar laps times to the 1LE.

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Disagree - most people who won't go to the track won't pay extra for tires that aren't any good on the street. They will opt for PP1 or a base GT and save money and get a better street car.
Possibly, but you can always replace the SC2’s with a less aggressive tire and still have a far better handling street car than a base or PP1.
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Old 09-24-2018, 02:14 PM   #73
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Also it makes sense for Ford to leave coolers off the PP2... yes it sucks for 1% who want to track it ,but it keeps it from costing them GT350 sales and it allows them to claim the car can run similar laps times to the 1LE.
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Old 09-24-2018, 03:51 PM   #74
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Also it makes sense for Ford to leave coolers off the PP2... yes it sucks for 1% who want to track it ,but it keeps it from costing them GT350 sales and it allows them to claim the car can run similar laps times to the 1LE.
I think we all agree here and that's all nice for Ford and all, but where does that leave the consumer. Particularlly Mustang lovers. Not the best lineup of Mustangs, even though the potential is there. No biggie for the 1/4 mile crowd though...

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Possibly, but you can always replace the SC2’s with a less aggressive tire and still have a far better handling street car than a base or PP1.
I was thinking this, but you can't get the PP2 with an auto or a convertable, and it's pretty pricy just to get some decent handling charachteristics. Remember with the Camaro, they ALL can handle extrememly well.

I would love to see a base Mustang that speaks to those who want an affordable V8 RWD coupe (which it does), then a PP1 that really sorts out the floppy handling. Make it flat in the turns, and use Magneride to make the ride enjoyable without taking away the handling aspect. IF they did this, there would be no need for a PP2. In otherwords, just get rid of the PP1, and use the springs and sways from the PP2 (or better yet, GT350), and tune the Magneride for comfort in tour mode and go stiffer from there. And if they don't want to add the coolers, just forget the track tires. Who cares if it turns a better or worse lap time than an SS 1LE? Lap times aren't everything.

So someone who wants a daily driver and a weekend canyon carver, can get the auto or convertible and not give up the nicely planted handling aspects. Again, the potential is there and Chevy did it, so why not? Yes, you can't get an auto or convertible on the 1LE, but you don't need the 1LE to handle well in a Camaro. The regular versions of the Camaro offer outstanding handling charachteristics, and you can track them as well. The 1LE is just a track package for those who track frequently, but the non-1LE's handle like the old BMW M series used to. Instant turn-in, laser sharp steering precision, flat and planted in the turns and transitions, good feedback through the steering wheel, etc...
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:28 PM   #75
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Look bro if you too thick headed to understand that a hot lap and a cool down lap are two different things I can’t help you. If the car was only capable of one fast lap no experienced driver would think that slowing down a lap would extend the cars capability beyond 1 lap. If 3 hard laps consecutive caused it to overheat then Cool down laps between hard laps may allow you to stay on the track.

If you have 3 sheets of colored paper(hot laps) and you put a sheet of white paper(easy lap) between each colored you now have 5 sheets total... not 6 bro.
Are you THAT oblivious or can you simply not count. The magazine didn't specify "hot" laps or "easy" laps. It said "THREE LAPS" bro. THREE laps. It overheated in THREE laps even with an easy lap in between laps. So look, if you wanna play ignorant then fine by me. But don't sit here insulting me when it is plain as day what they said and meant. If you have 3 total sheets of paper then you have 3 sheets of paper bro. Not 5. Not 6. Not 3 and a half. 3. They took it out for three laps and at the third lap it overheated. If an easy lap is in between 3 total laps then that means lap number 2 was the easy lap. It doesn't get much easier to understand than that even for a Mustang guy. Unless you're deliberately trying to downplay it so it doesn't look as bad as it really is.
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I’m not arguing that the car not having coolers isn’t an issue. That’s been agreed since the specs were released, but I will argue with people who like to bend facts to make their case. These tests are about how fast of a lap can the car put down not whether the vehicle is for sustained track duty because Ford has stated it is not designed to be. The PP2 is too close in performance capability to the 350 to put coolers on it and have 2 n/a track cars with similar performance. When the 350 is retired you will most likely see a PP2 with coolers.
And that is exactly what you're doing. Either way, no matter how you try to play it, the GT PP2 went thru all this and an entire renovation just to overheat on the track. So that tells me right there that even with Ford trying to put up a fight they are still falling short miserably. SO I can see why you would wanna stretch it as much as you can to make it look better than it is. Either way the damn thing overheats which should have been addressed by Ford. So the car makes no sense and doesn't even have a justification for it's own existence. It is slower than the A10 GT in a straight line, slower than the Bullitt in a straight line, slower than the GT350R around a track, will overheat...WTF does it even exist for? To have a different V8 Mustang out there that is better than it in every category?? Yea, good job again Ford.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:35 PM   #76
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The ZR1 finished just above it , so how credible are those results?

Also it makes sense for Ford to leave coolers off the PP2... yes it sucks for 1% who want to track it ,but it keeps it from costing them GT350 sales and it allows them to claim the car can run similar laps times to the 1LE.
Weren't you the one who kept saying that Shelby owners don't care about performance and that they'll still buy the Shelby and the name alone is the draw for it? When I said the GT PP2 would not elbow in on Shelby performance levels you argued all those points. Or at least one of you did. Now all of a sudden it would cost them GT350 sales? Wow.

The GT PP2 is already going to cost them sales over the Shelby because why spend Shelby money when you can get the much cheaper GT PP2 and throw a cooler on it? But then again I don't think Mustang guys are practical at all anyway. If the SS simply needed a cooler to consistently keep up with the ZL1 then I would have bought the SS fully optioned and saved money. What sense does it make to buy a Shelby at this point? Just to have a Mustang that is slower than a GT and the Bullitt in a straight line and just a hair faster than the PP2 while costing significantly more than all of them? No thanks.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:40 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
I think we all agree here and that's all nice for Ford and all, but where does that leave the consumer. Particularlly Mustang lovers. Not the best lineup of Mustangs, even though the potential is there. No biggie for the 1/4 mile crowd though...
That is the problem I see with this entire S550 Gen. All the V8s are hovering in the same performance arena as the SS family while all costing from SS money to (higher than) ZL1 money. With the Camaro you can get everything in one car whether it has the manual trans or the A8. And then you can step it up to the ZL1 if you want. With the GT you have to figure out what you want more and then pick one accordingly and have a car that is specific to one performance area while sucking ass at everything else. And even the ones that are good at tracking will still overheat unless you spend ZL1 money for a GT350 non-R and just to stay in the same performance area.
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:49 PM   #78
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Are you THAT oblivious or can you simply not count. The magazine didn't specify "hot" laps or "easy" laps. It said "THREE LAPS" bro. THREE laps.
Copied directly from the C&D article....

"In addition to the aforementioned, the PPL2’s $6500 upcharge over a base GT buys a front splitter, a unique spoiler, a larger radiator, a trio of chassis-stiffening braces, and retuned suspension, steering, and anti-lock-braking logic to play nice with the Cup 2 tires. But with no differential cooler, the rear axle overheated every time we took the Mustang out, often in as few as three hot laps, and even with easy laps staggered between them. So there is one thing it needs besides a proper name."

You done?
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:03 PM   #79
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Weren't you the one who kept saying that Shelby owners don't care about performance and that they'll still buy the Shelby and the name alone is the draw for it? When I said the GT PP2 would not elbow in on Shelby performance levels you argued all those points. Or at least one of you did. Now all of a sudden it would cost them GT350 sales? Wow.

The GT PP2 is already going to cost them sales over the Shelby because why spend Shelby money when you can get the much cheaper GT PP2 and throw a cooler on it? But then again I don't think Mustang guys are practical at all anyway. If the SS simply needed a cooler to consistently keep up with the ZL1 then I would have bought the SS fully optioned and saved money. What sense does it make to buy a Shelby at this point? Just to have a Mustang that is slower than a GT and the Bullitt in a straight line and just a hair faster than the PP2 while costing significantly more than all of them? No thanks.
Nah you got the wrong guy I never said anything about Shelby owners not caring about performance. The Shelby is an amazing performer. What I said was that the Shelby's major draw is the FPC , good looks and the Shelby cache. Something a PP2 that needs coolers added will never have. I'm skeptical that people who can afford a Shelby will settle for a PP2 even if it had coolers, but I believe that Ford does not want the PP2 to be nipping at the Shelby's heels regardless.

The Shelby is past it's prime at this point, but its selling so Ford will keep it in the lineup until the GT500 releases.
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:36 PM   #80
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What I said was that the Shelby's major flaw is the FPC
Fixed it for you.

The PP2 shows that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC. For owners, the FPC represents a long term reliability issue and the potential for problems was evident when the “over rev” feature was found in a early release of the owners manual
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Old 09-24-2018, 06:44 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy View Post
Also it makes sense for Ford to leave coolers off the PP2... yes it sucks for 1% who want to track it ,but it keeps it from costing them GT350 sales and it allows them to claim the car can run similar laps times to the 1LE.
This reminds me of Wile E. Coyote.
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Coyote uses absurdly complex contraptions (sometimes in the manner of Rube Goldberg) to pursue his prey, which comically backfire with the Coyote often getting injured in slapstick fashion.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:31 PM   #82
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Fixed it for you.

The PP2 shows that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC. For owners, the FPC represents a long term reliability issue and the potential for problems was evident when the “over rev” feature was found in a early release of the owners manual
You're cute , but you don't strike me as the kind of guy that has to worry about over-reving his engine much. I think you'd be safe with the Voodoo.

You are correct that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC it just wouldn't be as much fun to drive.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:05 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy View Post
Copied directly from the C&D article....

"In addition to the aforementioned, the PPL2’s $6500 upcharge over a base GT buys a front splitter, a unique spoiler, a larger radiator, a trio of chassis-stiffening braces, and retuned suspension, steering, and anti-lock-braking logic to play nice with the Cup 2 tires. But with no differential cooler, the rear axle overheated every time we took the Mustang out, often in as few as three hot laps, and even with easy laps staggered between them. So there is one thing it needs besides a proper name."

You done?
I guess you'll just have to have your interpretation and I'll have mine.
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Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
Fixed it for you.

The PP2 shows that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC. For owners, the FPC represents a long term reliability issue and the potential for problems was evident when the “over rev” feature was found in a early release of the owners manual
And they could have cut the costs down by a lot. The GT350 was the most impractical and foolhardy endeavor Ford has done in a long time.
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You're cute , but you don't strike me as the kind of guy that has to worry about over-reving his engine much. I think you'd be safe with the Voodoo.

You are correct that Ford could have made a great track car without the FPC it just wouldn't be as much fun to drive.
Nonsense. What was soo fun about the Shelby that couldn't have been done in the GT? We already see the HP the 5.0 is up to. With the GT350 IM and TB it makes even more and can rev up over 7500 RPMs. They could have designed the GT better, ditched that expensive Voodoo engine, kept the CF wheels (or scrapped them to save even more money), threw a better set of OPGs in it, gave it the GT350 IM/TB, and then hit it with some coolers. It would actually have been better than the Shelby if they did that. The GT350 IMO is the most useless, expensive, car that Ford built which could have been built much cheaper.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:28 AM   #84
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Look this thread is completely pointless because of one reason not the same person drove every car and not one of them was a professional driver or is good enough to put down lapse Within a single 10th repetitively, how bad were the corners cut, not to mention there SS 1LE time didn't match up with Car and Driver and Randy popes when compared to other cars some things a mess or Ford's paying somebody I mean honestly it says 305 tires on it R compound rubber, and it's only a second faster on a nearly 3-minute track
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