[Mr. Wyndham]

I dunno 3...I sat in a Kia Stinger at the auto show this past weekend...the door handles flexed like they were about to fall off, and I wasn't terribly impressed with the rest...

I also sat in a few Jags and found the same sort of interior materials as the Camaro. *NOT* comparing Camaro to a Jag overall...also not saying materials are top-notch in the Camaro...

[WhyUMad1LE]

I don't think the Camaro interior is bad at 40k. You have to take performance into context. Sure you can get a loaded Audi A3 with real metal accents for the same price. But it's not in the same realm of performance. Actual 40k performance cars: Golf R, STI Limited, Focus RS, Mustang GT, Challenger Scant Pack, M240i. The Camaro gives better performance than all of those while matching them in interior materials.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I dunno 3...I sat in a Kia Stinger at the auto show this past weekend...the door handles flexed like they were about to fall off, and I wasn't terribly impressed with the rest...

I also sat in a few Jags and found the same sort of interior materials as the Camaro. *NOT* comparing Camaro to a Jag overall...also not saying materials are top-notch in the Camaro...

Obviously it's the eye of the beholder. But as one whose job was to compare and evaluate cars subjectively I can assure the the Stinger is a marvel. GM needs to learn here and not just in the interior. The Stinger IS an Audi S4 for $10,000 less. $15,000 if equivallently equipped. And accepting an interior that is less in your ZL1 is not something you should do. GM can do much better and they should do much better.

Seriously though they have real aluminum in the trim and you judge them by the door handle stiffness? I thought they were fine.

But I have to always remember Bob Lutz, "half of the people can't even tell it's fake wood" and my only thought was, "yes, Bob, and half the people CAN".

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Obviously it's the eye of the beholder. But as one whose job was to compare and evaluate cars subjectively I can assure the the Stinger is a marvel. GM needs to learn here and not just in the interior. The Stinger IS an Audi S4 for $10,000 less. $15,000 if equivallently equipped. And accepting an interior that is less in your ZL1 is not something you should do. GM can do much better and they should do much better.

Seriously though they have real aluminum in the trim and you judge them by the door handle stiffness? I thought they were fine.

But I have to always remember Bob Lutz, "half of the people can't even tell it's fake wood" and my only thought was, "yes, Bob, and half the people CAN".

Oh, I'm not calling you out or anything...just sharing a perspective. I value the parts and pieces you touch and move and interact with far more than aesthetic "pretty" pieces. I got in the stinger and thought "Oh, this is nice"...then grabbed the handle to open the door, and that single act immediately made my face wrinkle.

I also noticed a 35k Mini, and a 50k BMW that didn't have any stitching on the arm rest, or power-adjustable seats (in the Mini's case)...it seemed terribly out of place to me, similar to the 1SS/1LT door panels that are just plastic chunks.

I dunno...I guess I might be the half that doesn't care so much...it's a vehicle, not my living room. But I understand those that do. My ZL1 has the most luxurious interior anyone in my family and immediate friends has seen...though, those people haven't bought a new car in the last 3 years, at least. So they're not exactly "up to date".

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Oh, I'm not calling you out or anything...just sharing a perspective. I value the parts and pieces you touch and move and interact with far more than aesthetic "pretty" pieces. I got in the stinger and thought "Oh, this is nice"...then grabbed the handle to open the door, and that single act immediately made my face wrinkle.

I also noticed a 35k Mini, and a 50k BMW that didn't have any stitching on the arm rest, or power-adjustable seats (in the Mini's case)...it seemed terribly out of place to me, similar to the 1SS/1LT door panels that are just plastic chunks.

I dunno...I guess I might be the half that doesn't care so much...it's a vehicle, not my living room. But I understand those that do. My ZL1 has the most luxurious interior anyone in my family and immediate friends has seen...though, those people haven't bought a new car in the last 3 years, at least. So they're not exactly "up to date".

Just suggesting you go experiencecothr a $70,000 car and the interior and features. You will either be totally shocked.......or wonder what the difficulty is. From my experience you will be shocked. But you may simply not care and let the awesome performance make you think the interior is an fete thought.

[camaro5]

Kia Stinger?

Funny that came up. I think it's a total hit. 0-60 4.5sec GT. 50k with sooo much more equipment than a loaded 2SS.

AWD for you Northerners - I prefer RWD - Stinger offers both. Styled by previous Lamborghini designer. Suspension and steering tuned by the former head of BMW M division.

10 year powertrain warranty, 5 years B to B. KIA ranked first in initial quality. $6500 in KIA factory lease incentive for GT

Watched a bunch of Youtube reviews - it's for real in every way. Note that it is a GT not a sports car.

The hatchback design will help sedan sales when they really need it.

3, I'm guessing your clubs will fit in here

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Just suggesting you go experiencecothr a $70,000 car and the interior and features. You will either be totally shocked.......or wonder what the difficulty is. From my experience you will be shocked. But you may simply not care and let the awesome performance make you think the interior is an fete thought.

I sat in several in that price range. They were definitely nicer inside. These vehicles also had no more than 330-350hp as I wandered around and had much more luxury than sport features. The one thing I do wish GM would do is start to use the soft-touch materials. That foam-pleather stuff...but I have heard in the past this material doesn't do well in their longevity testing (you might know if there's any truth to that).

Of course there's room for improvement...the interior is miles above the Gen 5 car...and I hope the next generation will be miles above, again. But as of right now? I truly think the Camaro's interior is good for what we get in the total package.

Honestly, on a separate note...the car that impressed me the most at the whole show was the CT6. Never been in or around that one....wow.

[protovack]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Go look at the Kia (yep Kia) Stinger. Real metal not fake painted plastic. Starts in the low 30s and TOPS OUT at $52,000. That interior is very nice and it's pretty much in the Camaro price range.

You guys are letting GM off the hook if you think it's ok to have a $40,000 plus Camaro with low rent plastic and trim.

This has been GM's problem for years. At mid to upper 20's, the interior on the Camaro is really pretty good. For a $40,000 and up car? Not so much. GM has done that for years, put an interior that for the base car price point is pretty solid but then option the car up to, in the case of the Camaro, $70,000 and it really is far from competitive. Yes, the performance is a bargain. But if you pay $70,000 for a car you really aught to be able to expect a $70,000 interior. And that means E-class Mercedes......er ooops GM doesn't know how to do that in a Cadillac. How about at least a Cadillac then, lol.

If you think the grade and quality of materials that goes into a Kia Stinger is any higher than a Camaro, then I think you are delusional. It's all the same composites, all made in the same factories. In fact, the same holds true for luxury vehicles in the price range you mention. These "luxury" materials you mention are just the same composites, except fluffed up with air and foam to make them feel softer and denser. There is nothing inherently "nicer" about them. They are no more natural. They aren't wood. They aren't real rubber. They aren't metal. Most of the time, cars in the 50-70k price range have an interior that is extremely over-rated. People like to think because they spend 70k on a car that they have a luxurious interior. It's a mirage. I've sat in Audi, Mercedes, Volvo's where everything is "soft touch" and superficially seems nice but after a while, you take a look around and wonder, how much nicer is it really. Not by much. Soft touch materials are hard to clean. They hold on to dirt and stains far more readily. They are much more susceptible to abrasion and scratches. And really, these materials are just as fake and plasticky as anything else. You just get tricked into thinking it's "nice" because it's pumped full of compounds to soften and fluff everything up. I'd love to see a breakout of the precise costs of each interior dash and trim piece and compare it to a luxury car in the 50-70k range. My prediction is that the luxury car maker is spending just a tad more on materials, but charging significantly more for them. And if you go find an old audi or mercedes in a wrecking lot the interior looks just as degraded as any other car, sometimes more so. They don't last longer, in fact quite the opposite. It's all designed to look and feel all nice and snuggly on the lot so you'll pay 20k more.

The 6th gen Camaro has a nice interior, it does what it needs to do with a minimum of extraneous junk. It's clean, simple, and functional. It wipes down easily. It's durable and utilitarian. It reflects who is buying a Camaro--mostly working people who want to have a bit of fun and want a lot of performance for their dollar. That's the market and that is what the interior is going to be designed around.

Is the ZL1 over-priced for what it is? Absolutely!
Is the 1SS? Or the 1LS? Not really.

[MiamiBlueCamaro]

Oh yea nice and fluffy and comfy......

[Cgocifer]

Kia stinger, ok decent 4 door car. The Camaro is a sports car now.

My 45k 1LE would destroy that thing at any price or option.

Another thing to keep in mind. GM tried to save weight even down to how many threads are on fasteners. So, if you load these things up with thick leather, real metal trim, plush accommodations, real wood, etc, weight would be added. If you want a blue collar priced sports car that can hang with super cars, buy a Camaro. If you want luxury appointments and premium materials, go buy a Mercedes or Audi.

Context: find a car that beats or equals the camaro in performance but has premium interior materials with real metal, wood, and etc. and costs the same. I would be curious to see what is out there. A bunch of people will say Mustang, but check the price again. For comparison, the 1LE costs $44k without PDR. So, a car you think has a better interior, costs the same, and beats or ties a 1LE. Good luck.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Kia stinger, ok decent 4 door car. The Camaro is a sports car now.

My 45k 1LE would destroy that thing at any price or option.

Another thing to keep in mind. GM tried to save weight even down to how many threads are on fasteners. So, if you load these things up with thick leather, real metal trim, plush accommodations, real wood, etc, weight would be added. If you want a blue collar priced sports car that can hang with super cars, buy a Camaro. If you want luxury appointments and premium materials, go buy a Mercedes or Audi.

Context: find a car that beats or equals the camaro in performance but has premium interior materials with real metal, wood, and etc. and costs the same. I would be curious to see what is out there. A bunch of people will say Mustang, but check the price again. For comparison, the 1LE costs $44k without PDR. So, a car you think has a better interior, costs the same, and beats or ties a 1LE. Good luck.

If you are looking at just performance you are going to be correct. The camaro will come out on top in that comparison. Believe it or not there are people that cross shop a ton of different vehicles in the same price range. And for some people, it doesn't always come down to performance.

Example, and I have said it before on here. A buddy of mine when he got his first good paying job wanted to buy a new car. He had always loved performance cars, loved spirited driving. He was looking at SRT 8 Challenger's. Ended up buying an Infinity G37 because he wanted the "luxury" car look/feel/prestige etc etc. The G37 was good enough for his spirited driving and at the time he bought it(this is going back probably 6 or 7 years), it's interior blew away the Dodge.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Kia stinger, ok decent 4 door car. The Camaro is a sports car now.

My 45k 1LE would destroy that thing at any price or option.

Another thing to keep in mind. GM tried to save weight even down to how many threads are on fasteners. So, if you load these things up with thick leather, real metal trim, plush accommodations, real wood, etc, weight would be added. If you want a blue collar priced sports car that can hang with super cars, buy a Camaro. If you want luxury appointments and premium materials, go buy a Mercedes or Audi.

Context: find a car that beats or equals the camaro in performance but has premium interior materials with real metal, wood, and etc. and costs the same. I would be curious to see what is out there. A bunch of people will say Mustang, but check the price again. For comparison, the 1LE costs $44k without PDR. So, a car you think has a better interior, costs the same, and beats or ties a 1LE. Good luck.

If you are looking at just performance you are going to be correct. The camaro will come out on top in that comparison. Believe it or not there are people that cross shop a ton of different vehicles in the same price range. And for some people, it doesn't always come down to performance.

Example, and I have said it before on here. A buddy of mine when he got his first good paying job wanted to buy a new car. He had always loved performance cars, loved spirited driving. He was looking at SRT 8 Challenger's. Ended up buying an Infinity G37 because he wanted the "luxury" car look/feel/prestige etc etc. The G37 was good enough for his spirited driving and at the time he bought it(this is going back probably 6 or 7 years), it's interior blew away the Dodge in his opinion

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

If you are looking at just performance you are going to be correct. The camaro will come out on top in that comparison. Believe it or not there are people that cross shop a ton of different vehicles in the same price range. And for some people, it doesn't always come down to performance.

Example, and I have said it before on here. A buddy of mine when he got his first good paying job wanted to buy a new car. He had always loved performance cars, loved spirited driving. He was looking at SRT 8 Challenger's. Ended up buying an Infinity G37 because he wanted the "luxury" car look/feel/prestige etc etc. The G37 was good enough for his spirited driving and at the time he bought it(this is going back probably 6 or 7 years), it's interior blew away the Dodge.

That's fine but to say "mid to upper 20's, the interior on the Camaro is really pretty good" and then follow up with ...at "$70,000 and it really is far from competitive" doesn't jive.

Those paying $45 to $70k for a Camaro are buying performance first, not luxury. The Camaro is an insane value for the performance per dollar and the interior, relative to performance per dollar, is quite good at the price point for the 2SS, 1LE, ZL1, ZLE.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

That's fine but to say "mid to upper 20's, the interior on the Camaro is really pretty good" and then follow up with ...at "$70,000 and it really is far from competitive" doesn't jive.

Those paying $45 to $70k for a Camaro are buying performance first, not luxury. The Camaro is an insane value for the performance per dollar and the interior, relative to performance per dollar, is quite good at the price point for the 2SS, 1LE, ZL1, ZLE.

At the 70K point for a Camaro yes I would agree with you that those buyers are probably concerned with performance first.

1SS/2SS however, I could see a lot of people who are just looking at cars in that price range and that encompasses alot of cars. There are probably people that still buy SS when a V6 would suit them just fine because they don't want to be seen in a "lesser" trim.

That is part of the challenge not just the Camaro face but Mustang and Challenger as well. Yes the cars clearly have a target market, but there are people who will cross shop them with other vehicles. I think that is what #3 was trying to get at.