[Dolby109]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

The Romeo Giulia is not available with a manual transmission, which is a shame , so for the few people that actually like to shift gears it will never even make a maybe list .

What is worse is that the Giulia IS available with a manual in Europe. I see no reason why they couldn't ship some of them here, but they chose not to.

[Dolby109]

Originally Posted by '01LS1

Thinking if they do, that would be a big mistake.

I agree. I don't remember the exact words he said but it was something along the lines of 'Camaro owners like the (chopped) look, and we want to keep the design the way they want.'
Given the way development works I would bet money they already have a concept gen-7 well in the works (hopefully ready to show in Detroit since no one unveils anything good there anymore).

Personally instead of interviewing Camaro owners I think they ought to interview Mustang and other GT car owners to see what would turn them towards the Camaro. Some of that is perception, there are still many people that think Pony cars don't handle well, but based on comments I've read and Mustang owners I've talked to the poor visibility is by a large margin the #1 turnoff for the Camaro.

[Cgocifer]

Giulia vs Camaro is not even a close comparison. The 1SS 1LE costs about $40k and can out perform cars that cost close to or at 6 figures. The high performance variant of the Giulia costs close to $80 grand. I can't afford an $80k pleasure vehicle but I can afford a $40k pleasure vehicle. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this category. There's nothing else available brand new that can touch the 1SS 1LE Camaro in the $40k price range. Trust me, I checked. If I could afford an $80k pleasure vehicle, I probably wouldn't buy a Camaro to be honest. For me and I'm sure others, the 1LE at least is the best car out there for my money hands down.

Sure, the Giulia may have a nicer interior and be more refined, but I'd expect that for $80k. For a car that can perform like and looks like an 80k car but costs half as much, I expect and am willing to accept some flaws.

The Camaro was never intended to compete for affluent buyers. It was intended and still is intended as a high performance car that blue collar and middle class folks could buy with a little saving and hard work. Sure, there is the ZL1, but that is a special, low volume version for the affluent buyer who is a true Camaro enthusiast. Even that has flaws because if it didn't, it would cost 100 grand and push it even further into a class of buyers that most likely wouldn't spend that amount on a Camaro.

This issue always comes up about the flaws, lack of high end materials and appointments... for goodness sakes, it's a Camaro not a BMW, not a Mercedes, and not an Alfa Romeo. The Camaro has come a long way and I happen to love the interior and workmanship especially considering the improvements made from just a few years ago. The performance is world class which is astonishing considering what the car is. They have to cut costs somewhere.

Last point. Even if they made a wider range of variants including a posh version for affluent buyers, I doubt those folks would want to buy one because they would be buying a brand and car name that isn't exclusive and doesn't shout "Yes indeed, look at me, I'm successful and have loads of cash." Heck, that's why we have Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Those dont exist in Japan. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan had to create those brands for the American snobs who wouldn't spend the big bucks on a car with a commoner peasant badge on the hood.

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by Dolby109

Personally instead of interviewing Camaro owners I think they ought to interview Mustang and other GT car owners to see what would turn them towards the Camaro. Some of that is perception, there are still many people that think Pony cars don't handle well, but based on comments I've read and Mustang owners I've talked to the poor visibility is by a large margin the #1 turnoff for the Camaro.

This and nearly everything the Giulia writer wrote.

You can't expect mainstream sales success by appealing strictly to the enthusiast base.

This redesign misses the mark terribly for widening the appeal of Camaro. If anything, it will reduce the sales further once the 2018's are off the lots due to it's polarizing nature within an already small niche.

GM needs to go back to the drawing board on the real limitations of the 6th gen as an everyday car, but I'm not sure they're listening.

[indyz]

Originally Posted by Detroit Muscle

Why do you say that?? WHy would insurance be more?

[s] Have you owned a red sports car vs a neutral color like white or silver? With traffic tickets to your name?

I did a price quote for a red G37 a few years ago, difference was significant over a period of 6 months.

Its not a big factor in my calculations, but for folks on payments, it may make a difference in affordability. I love looking at that red, but its just not my style. Garnett red is a bit better. [/s]

EDIT: I stand corrected. I think it was the extra 20HP and extra options that increased the insurance cost. I guess if you have a red car you are more likely to get pulled over? Maybe thats an old wives tale too. If you do get a ticket, your rates will go up.

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

snip!
Heck, that's why we have Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Those dont exist in Japan. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan had to create those brands for the American snobs who wouldn't spend the big bucks on a car with a commoner peasant badge on the hood.

Not sure about snobs, but it was a tax structuring deal too, they save money. At least, thats what an in depth article said several years ago

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Doc

The 5th gen concept car was the vision of a single designer; it had nothing to do with committees, focus groups or polls. It wasn't perfect, but the moment I saw it I wanted one; it didn't have to 'grow' on me. It was a huge hit right out of the gate. Sangyup Lee, the original designer is no longer with Chevy.

What I'm seeing now is just confirmation of what I've felt has been going on ever since they did the first 'refresh'. This latest refresh to me, just illustrates the sad fact that the Chevy design department has no idea what to do with the Camaro. They have no vision of what a Camaro truly is or should be. The engineering team has delivered a spectacular performer; best high-performance sports gt America has ever produced. The body and interior however, just don't rise to the same level of brilliance.

I'm a Camaro fan. Blue Angel is still in my garage. It'll be 9 years now since I first picked it up after ordering it sight-unseen. I'd never driven one or seen one before I ordered it in May of 2009. I just knew I wanted it, and I've never regretted that decision. It pains me to see the design department floundering around with inconsistent, "I wonder if they'll like this?" attempts to modify the Camaro's looks and style.

Chevy's problem is they've priced the car into territory that has some seriously stiff competition. In September of last year, I bought a brand new Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Lusso. It's Monte Carlo Blue with a Crema interior that's a stunning combination of Italian leather and real walnut. It came with a 280 hp turbo 4, and a chassis that's flat-out the best I've ever experienced. The car was designed by a team of Ferrari and Maserati engineers, and developed and tested in Ferrari's development center and wind tunnel. Essentially, it's a 4 door Ferrari. The price? The base model starts at about $39k, and the one I got which has just about every option you can get, retailed for about $53k. Their top performer, the Giulia Quadrifoglio has the Ferrari V6 with 505 hp, goes 190 mph and starts at about $75k.

For the same $50k, there's no comparison between the Camaro SS and the Giulia Ti. The Camaro has more power and would out-perform the Giulia on the track, but only because of horsepower. The steering and chassis of the Giulia is simply incredible. However... the body and interior of the Giulia exudes refinement, class and style. Pictures don't come close to doing it justice. When you see one in person the styling radiates beauty; a beautiful Italian sculpted masterpiece, with consistent lines and styles from front to back, and inside too. This car clearly was designed by people who had a distinct idea and understanding of what a modern Alfa Romeo should look like and be. All Giulia's, even the base model, come with a carbon fiber driveshaft standard.

Just because the Giulia was designed by Ferrari and Maserati designers, that shouldn't make that much difference. A pencil and sketchpad costs the same no matter what you're designing. Chevy's problem is a lack of vision. They just don't know what to do with the Camaro, which is sadly starting to make it look like the 5th gen was a fluke; inotherwords, they basically got lucky.

I haven't been in this forum for awhile, but I remember having discussions with Number 3 about the need for Chevy to re-invent the pony car and come out with a base Camaro that positions itself back in the sweet spot of the market base it used to be in. It's now gotten to the point where they're going to be in trouble with this car, unless they pull a pretty big rabbit out of their hat. It's getting killed in the price segment it's sitting in now. Track performance isn't enough. You can't really use that kind of performance on the street anymore, and how many people actually take their car to a track?

Keep the high performance models, but come out with a new vision of a re-invented Camaro pony car. The $40k-$80k affluent customer is not at all like the $20k-$30k customer. They are much more demanding, and they can be, because every car maker is going out of their way to cater to them. This includes style, features and looks; not just track performance.

Mark Reuss, or whoever is in charge of the Camaro... PLEASE find a designer with a vision! Forget polls and focus groups. That only leads to design that looks like something the government would do. No more toy robot crap. No more design by committee with 5 different groups in charge of 5 different parts of the car.

Compare what $50k gets you from the new Camaro SS versus the Alfa Romeo Giulia, and this is just in the style and looks department, which believe me, is seriously important to the buyer who can spend $50k:

Alfa Romeo Giulia:
Attachment 930781

Has a definite look of identity to the heritage of Alfa Romeo, yet is clearly a modern design. The cabin is spacious and has good visibility. Very comfortable to be in. A pure joy to drive.


2019 Camaro SS:
Attachment 930782

Everyone's already said enough about the front. The body side is too high, the cabin height is too squashed. Looks out of proportion.


Alfa Romeo Giulia interior:
Attachment 930783

Attachment 930784

Elegant. The display is beautifully integrated into the dash. Steering wheel has the start button on it, and is modern but retains a classic feel.


2019 Camaro:
Attachment 930785

Is this supposed to be some kind of a military look? Thick chunky steering wheel looks like something out of a truck. And the screen... really? Looks like an add-on someone bought at Auto-Zone. For $50k?


The fact that when you start it up, it runs and handles like cars twice it's price, just isn't enough to save it's image. Looks matter. People buy on the basis of how it makes them feel when they look at it. If Chevy doesn't figure this out with the 7th gen, it may be the last Camaro, only this time for real.

The Alfa looks like a back road runabout. The camaro just screams muscle.

[Boost Creep]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

Still, 35k 1LE and PDR, great deal!

lol
I just reread his post.
I thought he posted "$35k used" when he actually posted "$35kusd". And yes, that is indeed a great deal!

[T_B]

Originally Posted by Detroit Muscle

Why do you say that?? WHy would insurance be more?

It wouldn't, it's just an old wives tale.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Dolby109

I agree. I don't remember the exact words he said but it was something along the lines of 'Camaro owners like the (chopped) look, and we want to keep the design the way they want.'
Given the way development works I would bet money they already have a concept gen-7 well in the works (hopefully ready to show in Detroit since no one unveils anything good there anymore).

Personally instead of interviewing Camaro owners I think they ought to interview Mustang and other GT car owners to see what would turn them towards the Camaro. Some of that is perception, there are still many people that think Pony cars don't handle well, but based on comments I've read and Mustang owners I've talked to the poor visibility is by a large margin the #1 turnoff for the Camaro.

I can assure you that this happens on a regular basis. And Ford does focus groups with Camaro and Challenger owners and FCA does the same. Those participating in the focus groups typically don’t know who is conducting the focus group, since they are typically conducted by 3rd party companies that do not disclose any affiliation. It wouldn’t be hard for a participant to figure out what type of vehicle they are in group for (sports car, or SUV, or lux sedan, etc) but they would be hard pressed to figure out if it was Chevy or Ford or Toyota or Honda conducting the study.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Giulia vs Camaro is not even a close comparison. The 1SS 1LE costs about $40k and can out perform cars that cost close to or at 6 figures. The high performance variant of the Giulia costs close to $80 grand. I can't afford an $80k pleasure vehicle but I can afford a $40k pleasure vehicle. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this category. There's nothing else available brand new that can touch the 1SS 1LE Camaro in the $40k price range. Trust me, I checked. If I could afford an $80k pleasure vehicle, I probably wouldn't buy a Camaro to be honest. For me and I'm sure others, the 1LE at least is the best car out there for my money hands down.

Sure, the Giulia may have a nicer interior and be more refined, but I'd expect that for $80k. For a car that can perform like and looks like an 80k car but costs half as much, I expect and am willing to accept some flaws.

The Camaro was never intended to compete for affluent buyers. It was intended and still is intended as a high performance car that blue collar and middle class folks could buy with a little saving and hard work. Sure, there is the ZL1, but that is a special, low volume version for the affluent buyer who is a true Camaro enthusiast. Even that has flaws because if it didn't, it would cost 100 grand and push it even further into a class of buyers that most likely wouldn't spend that amount on a Camaro.

This issue always comes up about the flaws, lack of high end materials and appointments... for goodness sakes, it's a Camaro not a BMW, not a Mercedes, and not an Alfa Romeo. The Camaro has come a long way and I happen to love the interior and workmanship especially considering the improvements made from just a few years ago. The performance is world class which is astonishing considering what the car is. They have to cut costs somewhere.

Last point. Even if they made a wider range of variants including a posh version for affluent buyers, I doubt those folks would want to buy one because they would be buying a brand and car name that isn't exclusive and doesn't shout "Yes indeed, look at me, I'm successful and have loads of cash." Heck, that's why we have Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Those dont exist in Japan. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan had to create those brands for the American snobs who wouldn't spend the big bucks on a car with a commoner peasant badge on the hood.

This x 100.

Btw not all premium marquees offer spiffy or atttactive interiors. Take a look at BMW M2 for example. As plain and boring as they come imo. Including a crooked driver seat to pass safety (apparently). Then check its price yet it competes with Camaro V6 perf wise. But is it a Bimmer

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Dolby109

What is worse is that the Giulia IS available with a manual in Europe. I see no reason why they couldn't ship some of them here, but they chose not to.

I think it had something to do with meeting regulation requirements for crash testing here in the U.S. Either it didn't pass, or they didn't have the time to do the expensive and very lengthy testing process in time for the car's release.

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Giulia vs Camaro is not even a close comparison. The 1SS 1LE costs about $40k and can out perform cars that cost close to or at 6 figures. The high performance variant of the Giulia costs close to $80 grand. I can't afford an $80k pleasure vehicle but I can afford a $40k pleasure vehicle. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this category. There's nothing else available brand new that can touch the 1SS 1LE Camaro in the $40k price range. Trust me, I checked. If I could afford an $80k pleasure vehicle, I probably wouldn't buy a Camaro to be honest. For me and I'm sure others, the 1LE at least is the best car out there for my money hands down.

Sure, the Giulia may have a nicer interior and be more refined, but I'd expect that for $80k. For a car that can perform like and looks like an 80k car but costs half as much, I expect and am willing to accept some flaws.

The Camaro was never intended to compete for affluent buyers. It was intended and still is intended as a high performance car that blue collar and middle class folks could buy with a little saving and hard work. Sure, there is the ZL1, but that is a special, low volume version for the affluent buyer who is a true Camaro enthusiast. Even that has flaws because if it didn't, it would cost 100 grand and push it even further into a class of buyers that most likely wouldn't spend that amount on a Camaro.

This issue always comes up about the flaws, lack of high end materials and appointments... for goodness sakes, it's a Camaro not a BMW, not a Mercedes, and not an Alfa Romeo. The Camaro has come a long way and I happen to love the interior and workmanship especially considering the improvements made from just a few years ago. The performance is world class which is astonishing considering what the car is. They have to cut costs somewhere.

Last point. Even if they made a wider range of variants including a posh version for affluent buyers, I doubt those folks would want to buy one because they would be buying a brand and car name that isn't exclusive and doesn't shout "Yes indeed, look at me, I'm successful and have loads of cash." Heck, that's why we have Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti. Those dont exist in Japan. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan had to create those brands for the American snobs who wouldn't spend the big bucks on a car with a commoner peasant badge on the hood.

If you actually read what I originally wrote, I clearly stated the the Camaro would outperform the Giulia on the track. I also said it outperforms cars twice it's price. I've also said repeatedly that my point was about looks; inside and out. The pictures of the Giulia I posted were not the $80k model. They were in fact of the Ti, which starts at $42k. If Alfa can deliver a car with "nice and refined" looks for $42k, why can't GM? GM doesn't even have to pay import duties; the Alfa's are all made in Italy.

My point was never to say that the Giulia is equal in track performance to the Camaro at the same price. My point was all about looks. Looks matter to people; especially people paying $40k+ for a car. Not everyone is a narcissist; some just like beauty and style.

Look at the sales results of the 5th Gen. If it looks like something somebody wants, they'll buy it. When I first got my 5th Gen in August of 2009, it was like I was a rock star out in public. Nobody ever came up to me and asked "what is it?" Everybody knew what they were looking at. GM needs that kind of visual identity excitement again, or the Camaro will just become another chapter in the history books.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by F1FTY

This and nearly everything the Giulia writer wrote.

You can't expect mainstream sales success by appealing strictly to the enthusiast base.

This redesign misses the mark terribly for widening the appeal of Camaro. If anything, it will reduce the sales further once the 2018's are off the lots due to it's polarizing nature within an already small niche.

GM needs to go back to the drawing board on the real limitations of the 6th gen as an everyday car, but I'm not sure they're listening.

I don't think they should make the Camaro an everyday car and its not a family car, as much as some people want it to be its not . I don't think it was ever meant to be either .

[indyz]

Originally Posted by T_B

It wouldn't, it's just an old wives tale.

You are probably correct. There was a slight difference in the model number of the red one, it was a G37S vs the one I eventually got which was a slate blue G37. I didnt think 20 HP would've made a difference, but if the color red didnt, then the 20 HP definitely did. Or maybe it was the pricing of the actual car itself with extra options....

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I don't think they should make the Camaro an everyday car and its not a family car, as much as some people want it to be its not . I don't think it was ever meant to be either .

I never said make it an everyday car. Make it a great looking car inside and out, and it will appeal to a wider customer base, which means more sales. Here's a pic from a 1970 Camaro marketing brochure from Chevrolet. They clearly intended it to be more than just a one-driver car.



That customer base is still out there, and it's far bigger than the forum enthusiast base. They can keep the lettered, hi-po models for the enthusiast. They just need a reborn base pony car with the kinds of looks that stop people in their tracks, and causes them to go look at them in the showroom. From the outside, the 6th gen looks cramped and uncomfortable, and that perception is enough to stop a lot of people from even considering it.