[Number 3]

Keep in mind, the Z/28 would be expected to be faster around a track than a ZL1 and ZL1 1LE.

For the Gen 5 Z/28 they were down 50 HP to the ZL1 (which WAS the Z/28 until a last minute change directed by Reuss before Chicago) and to get that car to be faster, they took everything out that wasn't regulated ANNNNND had to add carbon ceramic brakes with some other chassis improvements to do that. And you ended up with a $75,000 Camaro that didn't sell.

So with a Gen6 and the NA 5.5 L flat crank (read a guess of 600 plus HP) what would you have to do to get a 1LE Camaro with that engine to be faster still than a ZL1 1LE? It would be lighter without the SC, but if you are back to adding CC brakes then you get a Camaro that's again way more expensive.

My guess is, regardless of packaging the engine, there just wasn't a business case to support the program. If you count lost sales of SS and ZL1s to a Z/28 you would have to be certain you were more profitable per unit. This is why the C5 hardtop coupe turned into the Z06. It originally had cloth seats and manual windows, but someone wised up and said, "why do I want to give the customer the choice for me to make less money?" and it just became another model leading to the Z06.

That and I'd guess a DOHC 5.5L engine is way more expensive than an LT4.

This is one of those "sounds great on paper" but my guess is there was just no business case.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The 6.6 has a shorter stroke than the LS7, which had a 7,000 rpm redline. At 3.86” stroke, the 6.6 would be capable of more RPM at the same piston speeds as the LS7. You could get another 300 rpm at 3.86 for the same piston speeds as the 4.0 at 7,000.

Good points and ones I thought about later after my post. Good catch!

My main point, though, is more stroke = a lot more development time and more money. In terms of Camaro, currently, they are not going to want to spend any significant amount of time or money at this point (although I'd gladly be wrong). Sticking with a base engine that is already existing and proven, and just massaging it more towards performance than being a balanced street/performance/track engine... that's what GM will most rationally be able to pull off.

I mean, I guess they could take the L8T, switch to the LT1 aluminum block, throw on the LT2 intake, up the redline to 7,000 RPM and develop a valvetrain to support that, but I see a more quick and dirty way to get something "different" is to just use the LT2 and up the RPM a little, plop that in the Camaro... doesn't have to be a Z/28, could be just some other track-oriented variant; however, if we can settle on the Z/28 not being the "king" and look at things from a progressive point, the 6th Gen SS 1LE is right at the heels of the 5th Gen Z/28 capability and adding some power to the 6th Gen SS 1LE will eclipse the 5th Gen Z/28 performance...

Maybe the answer, in these times, for a 6th Gen Z/28 is a basically ZL1 (non-1LE), slightly different front fascia and an LT2 with slightly raised redline?

Originally Posted by Number 3

Keep in mind, the Z/28 would be expected to be faster around a track than a ZL1 and ZL1 1LE.

For the Gen 5 Z/28 they were down 50 HP to the ZL1 (which WAS the Z/28 until a last minute change directed by Reuss before Chicago) and to get that car to be faster, they took everything out that wasn't regulated ANNNNND had to add carbon ceramic brakes with some other chassis improvements to do that. And you ended up with a $75,000 Camaro that didn't sell.

So with a Gen6 and the NA 5.5 L flat crank (read a guess of 600 plus HP) what would you have to do to get a 1LE Camaro with that engine to be faster still than a ZL1 1LE? It would be lighter without the SC, but if you are back to adding CC brakes then you get a Camaro that's again way more expensive.

My guess is, regardless of packaging the engine, there just wasn't a business case to support the program. If you count lost sales of SS and ZL1s to a Z/28 you would have to be certain you were more profitable per unit. This is why the C5 hardtop coupe turned into the Z06. It originally had cloth seats and manual windows, but someone wised up and said, "why do I want to give the customer the choice for me to make less money?" and it just became another model leading to the Z06.

That and I'd guess a DOHC 5.5L engine is way more expensive than an LT4.

This is one of those "sounds great on paper" but my guess is there was just no business case.

...and with that said, comes the other hard point of a Z/28. With the ZL1 1LE as good as it is, and already so track-focused, a Z/28 is a hard-sell business case. I think the 5th Gen Z/28 worked because there Camaro was selling very well at the time, there was a lot of customer interest, there was an exotic engine (LS7) from another program (C6 Z06) that could, essentially, be dropped in the Camaro.

1. The 6th Gen has not sold as well as the 5th Gen. We can argue all the reasons why, and there is, I do not believe, a single reason. Some are GM's fault and some are just the environment of the time for selling vehicles... 2. The 5th Gen Z/28 did not sell well (again, there are many reasons you can argue why, but the point is that it didn't). 3. From my understanding, a ZL1 1LE with the LT1 is, on average, slower than a SS 1LE due to the aero bits slowing it down on straights and not enough power to compensate for those losses to justify the gains in cornering performance.

So, the card you have to play is to make something unique, but, being where Camaro is for a business case, that needs to be something that doesn't take up a bunch of R&D resources and wont cost a ton of money to develop. Remember, C8 trumps any Camaro project.

[Bhobbs]

Maybe the Camaro isn’t selling well because GM does nothing to earn those sales. The Mustang and Challenger constantly get new variants, more power, more performance and other upgrades. GM pushed the Camaro out of the gates and it’s just rolling along for now. How about getting the LT2 in there? Maybe putting the upgraded LT4 from the CT5 Blackwing or even the LT5. Hell, even a power bump on the LT1 is warranted at this time.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Maybe the Camaro isn’t selling well because GM does nothing to earn those sales. The Mustang and Challenger constantly get new variants, more power, more performance and other upgrades. GM pushed the Camaro out of the gates and it’s just rolling along for now. How about getting the LT2 in there? Maybe putting the upgraded LT4 from the CT5 Blackwing or even the LT5. Hell, even a power bump on the LT1 is warranted at this time.

All good points.

The LT2 doesn't fit last we heard but the heads should. Certainly the LT4 from the blackwing fits. LT5? I think it might need a new hood for the taller SC.

I think GM just get themselves in a bind. They designed the Gen6 for a very specific group of Camaro enthusiasts and any new models or engines would only appeal to that same group.

They could do many of the things you suggest, but none of them are free.

Take the LT5. No longer in production. It was a very expensive low volume engine. But with a new hood (not cheap if needed) you could have a 700 plus HP Camaro. But in the end they would be doing it for the same group of people that are already in the camp. No plus sales and likely no more profit unless you charged $100,000 for a Camaro and that would simply be even fewer sales of and LT5 Camaro.

Dropping the Blackwing V8 in the Camaro is probably the easiest thing to do, but I'm not sure if the extra 20 HP came free or was it increased piece cost?

There was a time when GM would have because they could. With as I suspect almost all of their financial and people resources dedicated to an EV future, it's just not very likely.

[Bhobbs]

How would an LT5 Camaro be 100k when the GT500 isn’t. It has a bespoke engine, DCT trans, new hood, new fenders, multiple aero packages and other stand alone upgrades. Even the Demon wasn’t 100k and that was a very limited car.

I get EV is the focus but Ford is building the Mustang portfolio and rolling out electrics. Is GM unable to do both?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

How would an LT5 Camaro be 100k when the GT500 isn’t. It has a bespoke engine, DCT trans, new hood, new fenders, multiple aero packages and other stand alone upgrades. Even the Demon wasn’t 100k and that was a very limited car.

I get EV is the focus but Ford is building the Mustang portfolio and rolling out electrics. Is GM unable to do both?

I’m basing my guess of $100,000 on the premium GM charged for a ZR1 vs a Z06 and adding that over a ZL1. No clue on Fords pricing or piece cost but my guess is it’s more mass produced parts.

As for GM and Ford I have no clue what Ford has going but GM has said they are delivering 30 EVs by 2025 or something like that. Plus GM has way more ADAS going, at least publicly.

But again GM is no longer the company that just does stuff. If it isn’t leading to more profit they won’t do it. Why do you think they. Delayed the Z06 with the same engine this thread is about. Because they can delay the capital and still make a crap ton of money. If they can sell just as many Corvettes without a Z06 then that’s what they’ll do.

[Bhobbs]

Obviously, I’m an outsider looking in but when I see one brand doing both and one not really doing either, it makes me wonder what GM is actually trying to achieve. There are flashes of it, like the C8 and the Colorado ZR2 but I don’t see them doing it consistently. The Silverado ZR2 is likely to be a solid truck but solid won’t cut it with the Raptor and TRX. The Alpha Camaro is an excellent demonstration of GM chassis engineering, but that alone isn’t enough when the Mustang and Challenger offer more for the enthusiasts in a package the average driver can live with.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Obviously, I’m an outsider looking in but when I see one brand doing both and one not really doing either, it makes me wonder what GM is actually trying to achieve. There are flashes of it, like the C8 and the Colorado ZR2 but I don’t see them doing it consistently. The Silverado ZR2 is likely to be a solid truck but solid won’t cut it with the Raptor and TRX. The Alpha Camaro is an excellent demonstration of GM chassis engineering, but that alone isn’t enough when the Mustang and Challenger offer more for the enthusiasts in a package the average driver can live with.

You are not wrong. I had 26 years there (just retired from GM) and was 3rd generation GM as was is my wife. Me, my wife, my bro in law, my longest friend all went to GMI. It is still ingrained in me. For most of my career, though, the legacy costs of healthcare and pensions forced GM to do some pretty stupid stuff. It was often painful to watch let alone be part of. We started a program one time that had a $3,000 burden before we added a single part just for those costs. And it was GM’s dominance in the industry for the pre 1980 years that left them with many more retirees than Ford or Chrysler. Post bankruptcy has certainly been better for products and quality but post bankruptcy has also been about profit. So no longer are there programs to just show off or fill a nitch or even more so compete where they really don’t need to. Raptor and Ram are great examples. ZR2 with an LT4? Very doable, but I doubt we will see it.

And I’d still like to see how the Blackwing V8 made it into production working in only one model. BTW I had hope for a Camaro off of THAT architecture. A full size sedan at 3600 pounds would have been something, more expensive, but special.

If I turn my POV it’s easy to see your side. Sadly, I know too well whyGM isn’t that company. I just hope that if we do get an EV performance coupe down the road it sets the standard.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by Checkmate1

You are missing the point. GM knows they made a phenomenal car with the 6th Gen Camaro.

Problem is - us 'enthusiasts' aren't buying them!

Why would GM continue to pour money into a product that isn't selling?

We are buying them. I bought one last Sept. Many on here are trying to order them as well.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Why do you think they. Delayed the Z06 with the same engine this thread is about. Because they can delay the capital and still make a crap ton of money. If they can sell just as many Corvettes without a Z06 then that’s what they’ll do.

I suspect the Z06 was delayed because COVID derailed the project validation timeline.

I'm Chief Engineer for the Americas, of a global construction equipment company. That's what happened to us. Heavily influenced by development resources in EU countries.

Originally Posted by Number 3

And it was GM’s dominance in the industry for the pre 1980 years that left them with many more retirees than Ford or Chrysler.

Originally Posted by Number 3

But again GM is no longer the company that just does stuff. If it isn’t leading to more profit they won’t do it.

GM's dominance was built on product differentiation, innovation and styling. If they only focus on the the vanilla, they better be the best at it. Product, sales and service.

Originally Posted by Number 3

If I turn my POV it’s easy to see your side. Sadly, I know too well why GM isn’t that company. I just hope that if we do get an EV performance coupe down the road it sets the standard.

I see your POV also. Its frustrating to enthusiast to see GM obviously not care. Camaro has been ignored since 2018. Colors and cosmetic changes only as the "A" team moved on. My "new" 1LE is functionally the same as the one they revealed in 2016.

Many of us are "Influencers" in our social circle because we are knowledgeable and hands on with cars. Should I buy my wife a Mexico build Blazer? If I become a Mustang or Challenger buyer, what brand of pickup do you think I'll buy? Should I have any affinity to the brand?

GM still has Corvette as a hallo, but it truly is unusable as a driver. I'm not fat and I find them extremely uncomfortable so I won't buy one. The Camaro has leg, hip and shoulder room. I was equally satisfied with the 2-door, Holden Monaro based GTO. GM killed Holden and Monaro too.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Xaxas

The problem is that the ZL1 has pretty much all the equipment the Camaro can have and makes it heavier, they should have offered a Z28 variant with only 1 speaker, being able to delete ac, smaller screen, less sound deadening, lighter seats and recalibrating stuff to account for this.

The marketing for the 5th Gen Z/28 IMO was bungled horribly in this area. We were lectured on how less content and reducing weight actually makes building the Z/28 more expensive.

Do the weight reductions yourself. If the factory does it, the price would go through the roof again. It finally dawned on GM with the LT1 that if the car has less content, the customer should expect to pay less, not more.

A sixth Gen Z/28 would be a fiasco. Take your fully equipped ZL1 and do it yourself. You will save money.

[waterman]

It will be interesting to see what Chevy does with the Z06/Z07. It has been stated to be a track first variant. The NA FPC high revving LT6 homologated for C8.R will likely be shorter front to back and potentially wider than LT1/LT2 and LT4. LT2, LT6 and LT7 will all bolt right into the current C8 chassis.

Based on current 4-valve trends, a deck height of 8.780 would narrow the engine block. With smaller bore spacing (4.252?) than the pushrod LT1, the length of the engine would be shorter too. Yes, the cam covers will be significantly wider than the pushrod engine. Will in fit in Camaro engine bay? I think so, obviously this is speculation on my part.

Further, undeniably the Z07 option will come with stout price tag. There are rumors of CF wheels, brakes and aero (active?). DSSV and aluminum pucks like in the ZLE are floating around the rumor mill as well. Yes!, Corvette IS the halo, but option packages like Z07 can be done. Just look at the litany of options for Stingray. If you don't want Z07 or Z51, don't buy it.

The big question for me is whether or not Chevrolet decides to trim the fat on Z06. If it is the same fat girl that Stingray is, IMO it's a fail.

I love my ZLE. With that said, she is also a bit of a fat girl. The motorized, heated/cooled seats, back seat, extensive sound deadening, heated steering wheel to name a few are all unnecessary for a track focused/performance car.

Humor me...

LT6 is likely significantly lighter than LT4. Heck, LS7 is lighter than LT4. Keep the Z/28 as a street legal and truly track focused car. Dump the aforementioned creature comforts of ZLE. Include lighter manual seats (another item in the parts bin but certainly less expensive than the current Recaros). Rear seat delete is less costly than rear seats. Sure, spring rates may need some attention on a lighter car. Mounting and wiring LT6 in the Alpha platform also incurs additional cost. The steel brakes are real good but make CF an option. I like AC, but make it and sound system an option. NA may require less heat exchangers, also resulting in weight savings. Sure we lose big TQ and a little HP(20-35) from LT4 to LT6, but dumping 300+ lbs. in combination with NA revs to 9000 bolted to a TR-6060 (manual unavailable in C8) and eLSD has me sporting a bit of a chubby. I'd buy that car!

I get it, all of this may not be cost effective for "the floundering" Camaro.

One can dream Z/28... or buy a Z06. Most certainly, that is what Chevrolet is banking on.

Last thought, IMHO at least half of all ZLE owners would have purchased that car (Z/28) if it were available. Those who grabbed ZLE for the looks and had their tender buttocks chafed by the firm ride may not be a fit for a truly track focused Z/28 or Z06/Z07 for that matter.

Opinions will vary.

[Number 3]

First, build complexity costs money. So if GM adds a “lower mass” option even if it’s as simple as NOT adding A/C it is more expensive. Now I need a control head that doesn’t show air. More money for that tooling a new PN in the plant.

2nd when GM changed the Z28 to the ZL1 at the last minute they had to differentiate the new Z/28 and it had to be faster to boot around the track. So with a 50 HP deficit all you hot fodders tell us what you’d do to make it a faster/better track car.

Everyone chime in on how many seconds a 100 pound weight reduction results in. 4? 5? Lol more like tenths at best. So we got CC brakes which did make a difference along with some chassis tweaks. And a hand built LS7 (will always love that engine simply because it went in the Z06 I worked on) and CC brakes added at least 20k over a ZL1 annnnnnnd splat.

What a lot of people thought a Z28 should be, as pointed out is just a better handling lower weight version of the base car that doesn’t really cost any or much more anyway. So that’s a customer miss I think.

Now this whole thread is about disappointment that GM didn’t do exactly the same thing all over again. Put a wildly more expensive engine in the Camaro with 50 HP less and try to make it faster around a road course. I think GM learned it’s lesson.

That is unless anyone in this thread would accept a more expensive car (LTx is more expensive than an LT4) that is slower around he track. And some might. But in the end is that more profitable for GM?

[JUSTIFIED]

Z/28 was never going to happen and I think the Camaro engineers knew that when they designed the ZLE. It's the all out balls to the wall Camaro that the Gen5 Z/28 was. The last hurrah, so to speak.