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Old 06-27-2022, 10:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrptrks View Post
If you are already threshold braking or have engaged ABS, that is the limit of grip that the tires can provide. Downshifting during this time won't make you stop any faster but it will reduce brake pad wear and reduce the amount of heat generated by the brakes.
Also that wasn't the intention.

The point is basic physics and gearing ratios.

Lower gear slows you down faster if you let off the gas, the addition of brakes beyond that only adds to slow down the car in a shorter distance.
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Old 06-27-2022, 11:34 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by FlukeSS View Post
It will shorten your stopping distance, due to reverse torque of the gear.

Its not a true engine brake like on a semi, but it will definitely stop you faster than running at the highest possible gear under the same condition.
It CAN do that, but in a panic stop situation it likely isn't going to do anything measurable. The limitations are ultimately going to come down to how well the tires can hold the road.

In a rear drive car, the assist from the engine will come only from the rear wheels. Those wheels are not going to have the same level of grip as the fronts because how the weight of the car shifts to the front-end in a panic stop situation.

In a front drive car, the brakes are already pushing the tires past their limit to kick in the ABS.
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Old 06-27-2022, 01:15 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=Crushin_LT1;11192306]I didn't realize unintended acceleration went back that far, I recall it being an "issue" circa 2010 for Toyotas.



You're just not old enough, obviously! The Audi 5000 started it all back in the '80's
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Old 06-27-2022, 01:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ember1205 View Post
It CAN do that, but in a panic stop situation it likely isn't going to do anything measurable. The limitations are ultimately going to come down to how well the tires can hold the road.

In a rear drive car, the assist from the engine will come only from the rear wheels. Those wheels are not going to have the same level of grip as the fronts because how the weight of the car shifts to the front-end in a panic stop situation.

In a front drive car, the brakes are already pushing the tires past their limit to kick in the ABS.
He's right mechanical braking doesn't help a car that can provide enough braking force for the situation/application. Nor would an additional set of brake calipers etc. Now if the car couldn't lock up the wheels or had a malfunction that would be a different story.


Basically, the tire is more important. For panic stops as long there is enough clamping force it all comes down to the tire. Other things than can help are forms of traction control to compensate for surface irregularities and change in direction, e.g. ABS.

Don't get me wrong, brake bias, sizing, and weight distribution play an important role but if those things are setup right (as they usually are from the factory) it really comes down to reaction time, brake pads, and most importantly tires.
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Old 06-27-2022, 01:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by LTfun View Post
He's right mechanical braking doesn't help a car that can provide enough braking force for the situation/application. Nor would an additional set of brake calipers etc. Now if the car couldn't lock up the wheels or had a malfunction that would be a different story.


Basically, the tire is more important. For panic stops as long there is enough clamping force it all comes down to the tire. Other things than can help are forms of traction control to compensate for surface irregularities and change in direction, e.g. ABS.

Don't get me wrong, brake bias, sizing, and weight distribution play an important role but if those things are setup right (as they usually are from the factory) it really comes down to reaction time, brake pads, and most importantly tires.
Awell, guess it is the thought that counts lol

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Old 06-27-2022, 02:52 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by FlukeSS View Post
These cars are also designed that under track/panic braking the car down shifts hard to the lowest possible gear and in doing so you deaccelerate faster as long as your foot is off the gas pedal which is usually the case in such scenarios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlukeSS View Post
It will shorten your stopping distance, due to reverse torque of the gear.

Its not a true engine brake like on a semi, but it will definitely stop you faster than running at the highest possible gear under the same condition.
These two statements are incorrect according to Ross Bentley, who makes a living analyzing this type of data for race car drivers as part of his consulting business, Bentley Performance Systems, which focuses on improving the performance of individuals, teams and organizations through coaching, workshops and the development of custom-designed programs. He has also written many books about techniques for racing and driving on the race track plus he won the 1998 United States Road Racing Championship in the GT3 class and the 2003 24 Hours of Daytona in the SRPII Class.

"whether to downshift through all the gears or do what’s called skip-shifting (going directly from 6th or 5th to 3rd) is a matter of preference, as it rarely makes a difference to lap times...It also helps by allowing you to focus completely on using the brakes, and not worry so much about all the downshifts. If it sounds like I recommend skip-shifting downshifts, you’re right."

Source:
https://speedsecrets.com/q-should-i-...all-the-gears/
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Old 06-27-2022, 03:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrptrks View Post
These two statements are incorrect according to Ross Bentley, who makes a living analyzing this type of data for race car drivers as part of his consulting business, Bentley Performance Systems, which focuses on improving the performance of individuals, teams and organizations through coaching, workshops and the development of custom-designed programs. He has also written many books about techniques for racing and driving on the race track plus he won the 1998 United States Road Racing Championship in the GT3 class and the 2003 24 Hours of Daytona in the SRPII Class.

"whether to downshift through all the gears or do what’s called skip-shifting (going directly from 6th or 5th to 3rd) is a matter of preference, as it rarely makes a difference to lap times...It also helps by allowing you to focus completely on using the brakes, and not worry so much about all the downshifts. If it sounds like I recommend skip-shifting downshifts, you’re right."

Source:
https://speedsecrets.com/q-should-i-...all-the-gears/
Well I was referring to performance shift, which I don't know if the M6's have.

But that's exactly what it does downshifts to the lowest possible gear relative to speed. I imagine there is quite a bit of skip shifting in the 10 speed autos, but rather or not M6's can do it automatically I would imagine that is not the case.

Specifically sharp turns, heavy braking or heavy acceleration is when performance shift kicks in automatically aside from manually engaging it.

Would the M6's be able to do no lift downshifting? I mean if they had to?
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Old 06-27-2022, 04:42 PM   #22
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Yes it makes sense for the automatics to downshift in those braking situations so you will be in the correct gear for maximum acceleration after the corner or panic stop. I was pointing out that downshifting during this braking does not reduce the braking distance compared to downshifting at the end of said braking.
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Old 06-27-2022, 09:29 PM   #23
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My front brakes, will definitely keep my vehicle from moving while stationary, 15.7" x 6-rotor/piston vs. RWD via the tire grip which will become a smoke show. The rear brakes will become toast due to the HP/TQ - as with most modern performance "high HP/TQ" RWD vehicles.

But as stated the road surface, then tires, then brakes matter. In that order.

AND!!! I will add people say that situational braking is moot (and maybe in most cases) but say you are braking a lot in traffic, or on winding roads or just generally heating them up - with "normal" brakes you are increasing your distance, while rare from some, I have 10000000s of highway miles and...

I have seen it 100s of times on the highway where people are in stop and go on the highway then they get moving and BLAM! Everyone says they were not paying attention; I blame the brake fade that people are not accustomed to. Think about it. In normal everyday driving you stop "like this", but you have just subjected the vehicle to heat overload, then get to speed and everyone stops - BLAM! brake fade. Main reason I keep my dusty ass pads.
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Old 06-28-2022, 12:04 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by FarmerFran View Post

I have seen it 100s of times on the highway where people are in stop and go on the highway then they get moving and BLAM! Everyone says they were not paying attention; I blame the brake fade that people are not accustomed to. Think about it. In normal everyday driving you stop "like this", but you have just subjected the vehicle to heat overload, then get to speed and everyone stops - BLAM! brake fade. Main reason I keep my dusty ass pads.
No, they were following too close to react and brake. Every. Single. Time. The amount of time it takes a human to "detect" and then "respond" is what causes that.

If the car in front of you just stopped...would you be able to stop? I'd bet in 99% of cases, the answer would be no.

Having raced, sure, I've experienced brake fade. You gotta be pushing a car pretty hard (with brakes) to experience brake fade.
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Old 06-28-2022, 05:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Crushin_LT1 View Post
I didn't realize unintended acceleration went back that far, I recall it being an "issue" circa 2010 for Toyotas.
I don't recall the Toyota issue.
For the Audi 5000:
Isolated owners reported cars taking off --> 60 Minutes picked up the story --> everybody with an Audi started crashing through their garage wall --> Government investigation.

Conclusion: "Pedal Misapplication" caused the events. Audis of the time had European style setup with gas pedal closer to brake pedal. Despite many other vehicles having nearly identical pedal arrangements, Audi owners disproportionately found a way to hit the gas instead of the brakes.
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Old 06-28-2022, 06:12 AM   #26
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If I remember correctly the 2016 motortrend head2head has the SS stopping shorter than the m4 with the $8,000 ccm brake package
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Old 06-28-2022, 07:07 AM   #27
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You're just not old enough, obviously! The Audi 5000 started it all back in the '80's

I can't argue with you there, lol.
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