[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

When I say "base" that is me guessing that there will be a 500 and a 500R (think ZL1 and ZLE) variant. I agree that they need to have it start with the top level stuff and I think they will.

I believe the reason the 350 came with the base audio, is it followed the Z/28 play book of being a stripped out track focused car. Ford let people option back in the tech stuff. I think that was smart on ford's part. I think had Chevy offered that on the Z/28 we wouldn't have seen as many 15s collecting dust on dealer lots.

Here is my prediction the regular 500 will split the difference performance wise between the ZL1 and ZLE. It will outperform the ZL1 in all measurables, but on the track will still lag behind the ZLE. Price wise the 500 must be somewhat close to the ZL1. Ford was able to undercut the price of the Z/28 with the 350R, so that is why I think they will be able to come close price wise.

If there is an R or KR variant I would hope that it would beat the ZLE on a track but I think it will come in at a higher price than the ZLE but still in the same range. Maybe high 70s.

I don't think they will go for an all in one type package if they really want to chase the ZLE. I think they will make a track focused option package, like the 13/14 GT500 had.

I do want it to beat the standard ZL1 on the track. But if it does I think it will be more from overpowering the ZL1 in the straight sections. We'll have to see. But I do also in the back of my mind think Ford would be happy to simply keep up with the ZL1 around a track instead of actually beating it. Everything I've seen from Ford like the PP2 with no coolers, Bullitt with PP1.5ish type handling, etc to me means that they are not trying to beat the Camaro on the track but to just stay close enough to look like they can or will beat it.

Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT

You see it as a fail, I see it as a cheaper entry into GT500 territory for guys who don’t want to spend 10-20k more on options they don’t want or feel they need.

Someone buying this car in a base configuration for staright line racing has no need for a top tier magnetic suspension. (And before people claim it’ll handle like crap, imagine a firmer version of the non-R GT350 as a starting point)

Other options like upgraded stereos and conveinance packages are just that... for conveinance...


Moving on, I’m in no way guaranteeing that this *eventual* GT500 will “slaughter” the HellCat and the ZL1-1LE, but some people here are making it sound like it’d take a miracle by the hand of God for it to eek out both “wins”.

Yea but look at the competition and what they offer at the same price point. Maybe with the 5th Gen you could get away with offering an extreme handling package that sacrifices options. But I think those days are long gone. The ZL1 gives you everything as standard and throws in extreme handling. The Z06 can be optioned down but that is because it is a $100K+ car with full options. Removing those options makes it affordable for people who might prefer to sacrifice the options in the ZL1 and "settle" for a base Z06 instead. The Hellcat comes standard with everything. Well it did but now they are offering the newer 717 HP one stripped down. However it comes in at around $50K which is Bullitt, GT PP2, fully loaded 2SS pricing. I don't think the GT500 can get away with that at this point. Not if they're gonna charge more than the competition. People want their cake and eat it too. If Ford skimps out while others are throwing everything in the interior then I for one wouldn't buy it no matter how well it performs.

Originally Posted by kttxz06

If the 500 smacks the Hellcat on the drag strip and gets the Zl1 1LE on the track, Ford absolutely gets the win on this one. I want it to happen, it will for everyone else to step up. It's been clear, I want the 500, but it must have a ton of carbon goodies on it. Don't care too much about it's place in line as I'd be modding it anyways. But, a 8k revving monster that handles like the 1LE. For me, on the streets? Hell yea, I'll take it. But, at what price? We'll see.

To me it can't just be a performance win. Not when they're coming in this late in the game. It has to win at everything. Options, performance, looks, comfort, pricing without markups, etc. If it just comes in and beats the competition at everything but costs $80K and dealers mark it up an additional $10K and it doesn't have heated seats or the upgraded stereo then that is hardly a win.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by Mike00

Sorry but no. The GT500 with the added power would not need to handle as well as the ZL1 just close enough to be able to use it's power to put up similar ring lap times. People are adding 80-100 HP on the ZL1 it is far from throwing off the handling.

I agree it's not going to catch the ZLE but thats a suspension piece. I still think the GT500 could be low 10's and handle about as well as the ZL1 and that would be a win from my perspective.

Unfortunately the Ford dealer network is going to ruin it with ADM anyway. They need to do what Dodge did with the Hellcat mark-ups - punish the dealer network.

Yeah, that didnt work either. The dealers did stop AMV add-ons, so they would comply with FCA's demand to sell at MSRP. However, They then simply went to selling "reservations for purchase". This wasn't a charge added to the vehicle cost, so it broke no rules set by FCA and still dropped additional cash into the dealer's pockets.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Two things:

1.) The Alpha chassis is light years a better chassis than the current Mustang one. It not only handles the power better, but also has a fantastic suspension setup.

2.) The ZR1 Corvette, with an additional 100hp, couldn't go but about 10-12 seconds faster (at least published) than the ZL1 1LE. That was with every bit of aero, lighter weight, etc... and it's a freaking Corvette with 755hp and 715lbs of torque.

You just aren't going to overcome the 1LE on the track with a GT500 designed to go fast down a 1/4 mile track. Argue it all day if you want, but it will NOT happen.




I think I would agree here. I just don't think it will handle as good, but if it's close to the GT 350R, it'll be sufficient.



Absolutely! However, Ford will never do it. They are dead set on trying to charge high dollar prices for low dollar items. It's why I refuse to buy anything Ford.

You do realize that it's the dealers, right? Ford sets the MSRP, and the dealers take it from there and do as they please. They know that there are plenty of idiots willing to line their pockets, so they take advantage. Honestly, it is a smart business move for the seller, it just sucks being a sensible buyer that wont pay the extra "just because" cost.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Two things:

1.) The Alpha chassis is light years a better chassis than the current Mustang one. It not only handles the power better, but also has a fantastic suspension setup.

You just aren't going to overcome the 1LE on the track with a GT500 designed to go fast down a 1/4 mile track. Argue it all day if you want, but it will NOT happen

Absolutely! However, Ford will never do it. They are dead set on trying to charge high dollar prices for low dollar items. It's why I refuse to buy anything Ford.

100% agree on the alpha chassis. Hell I was originally purchase a ZL1 A10 for my car but then I figured if I go that way I should go the ZO6 since I love the looks and would prefer a M7 (the bog on the Zl1 annoys the hell out of me). But I wanted the Zl1 originally because of how beautiful handling it is.

I do agree GT500 will not catch the ZLE. I do think it could potentially use the greater power and decent handling to run similar to the regular ZL1. I also think that kind of car would attract the buyer that wants a muscle car but with some handling. I see the ZL1 as handling first with drag second - I hope the GT500 is just the opposite.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Absolutely! However, Ford will never do it. They are dead set on trying to charge high dollar prices for low dollar items. It's why I refuse to buy anything Ford.

Honestly coming from german cars I have no allegiance - other than I've liked vettes since I was a kid but I always had to have a car year round because my focus was investment properties. Now I want an American fun weekend car and so I'm looking at all of them. The ZL1 to me is the performance bargain but I have to admit while I like the looks I prefer the vette.

Ford I actually prefer the exterior over the Camaro. That being said their ADM mark-up on the only decent cars they have is a huge turn off. I like the mustang, hate the performance except in the Shelby models and the ADM makes it pointless. What I don't get is all the fanboys - the GT350 is a great looking car with an incredible engine - the performance though makes it not worth it to me, especially with ADM. The GS Vette/1LE SS/ZL1 are a no brainer comparatively.

The GT 500 on other hand could be the perfect car bringing hellcat besting power with decent handling. ADM will destroy it as a real option though.

What I don't understand is how Ford is selling as much as it is. The only option I see being worth money if you aren't brand loyal is if you want to supercharge. In which case GT AUTO with a blower. Other than that I don't see the point with the Vette, Camaro, and Hellcat as options.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Yeah, that didnt work either. The dealers did stop AMV add-ons, so they would comply with FCA's demand to sell at MSRP. However, They then simply went to selling "reservations for purchase". This wasn't a charge added to the vehicle cost, so it broke no rules set by FCA and still dropped additional cash into the dealer's pockets.

I realize it didn't kill the practice but it did reduce and have an impact. Still going to happen but if they could kill the blatant 20-30k mark-ups it would be a good start.

At end of day though some dealers will get around it but at least try and make it hard on them.

Just no options out there in Ford land like Kerbeck for Vettes....

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I do want it to beat the standard ZL1 on the track. But if it does I think it will be more from overpowering the ZL1 in the straight sections. We'll have to see. But I do also in the back of my mind think Ford would be happy to simply keep up with the ZL1 around a track instead of actually beating it. Everything I've seen from Ford like the PP2 with no coolers, Bullitt with PP1.5ish type handling, etc to me means that they are not trying to beat the Camaro on the track but to just stay close enough to look like they can or will beat it.

Yea but look at the competition and what they offer at the same price point. Maybe with the 5th Gen you could get away with offering an extreme handling package that sacrifices options. But I think those days are long gone. The ZL1 gives you everything as standard and throws in extreme handling. The Z06 can be optioned down but that is because it is a $100K+ car with full options. Removing those options makes it affordable for people who might prefer to sacrifice the options in the ZL1 and "settle" for a base Z06 instead. The Hellcat comes standard with everything. Well it did but now they are offering the newer 717 HP one stripped down. However it comes in at around $50K which is Bullitt, GT PP2, fully loaded 2SS pricing. I don't think the GT500 can get away with that at this point. Not if they're gonna charge more than the competition. People want their cake and eat it too. If Ford skimps out while others are throwing everything in the interior then I for one wouldn't buy it no matter how well it performs.

To me it can just be a performance win. Not when they're coming in this late in the game. It has to win at everything. Options, performance, looks, comfort, pricing without markups, etc. If it just comes in and beats the competition at everything but costs $80K and dealers mark it up an additional $10K and it doesn't have heated seats or the upgraded stereo then that is hardly a win.

Nah dude. I agree. I have a feeling it's gonna look so fkn sick and mean, but the price is what bothers me. I had a dealership call me 2 weeks ago cus I was looking at one of their Super Snakes. They sold out, but he said they could order me one. Would be around $110k. Smh. So, I have no idea where the 500 will fall sticker wise. I'd have to say $70kish? Then go all the way up to $100k? Who knows. But if it comes out with say 750 hp that revs out to 8k? Holy shit. I think that will be more of a straight line street monster TBH. $10k in mods, you are prob pushing close to 1000HP. Pulley it down, tune, tire, fuel, OMG. But, we'll see.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Nah dude. I agree. I have a feeling it's gonna look so fkn sick and mean, but the price is what bothers me. I had a dealership call me 2 weeks ago cus I was looking at one of their Super Snakes. They sold out, but he said they could order me one. Would be around $110k. Smh. So, I have no idea where the 500 will fall sticker wise. I'd have to say $70kish? Then go all the way up to $100k? Who knows. But if it comes out with say 750 hp that revs out to 8k? Holy shit. I think that will be more of a straight line street monster TBH. $10k in mods, you are prob pushing close to 1000HP. Pulley it down, tune, tire, fuel, OMG. But, we'll see.

A GT350R priced out to $110k? The regular GT350 has at least escaped the ADM bullshit but I know the R still has some but that's the highest I've seen. Still not sure how the car is worth that though.

And yes the other nice thing about the GT500 is it will probably have a rear end that can handle the power - no bog needed....

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Nah dude. I agree. I have a feeling it's gonna look so fkn sick and mean, but the price is what bothers me. I had a dealership call me 2 weeks ago cus I was looking at one of their Super Snakes. They sold out, but he said they could order me one. Would be around $110k. Smh. So, I have no idea where the 500 will fall sticker wise. I'd have to say $70kish? Then go all the way up to $100k? Who knows. But if it comes out with say 750 hp that revs out to 8k? Holy shit. I think that will be more of a straight line street monster TBH. $10k in mods, you are prob pushing close to 1000HP. Pulley it down, tune, tire, fuel, OMG. But, we'll see.

The only difference is that the Shelby Super Snake is not the same as a Shelby GT500. SSS has always costed $30K-$40K more than the standard GT500. Those are more like specialty performance cars and those prices are not due to markups, that is just what they flat out cost. Performance wise they typically blow the GT500 away in just about everything and come fully loaded. Although it isn't on ZR1 level.

Originally Posted by Mike00

A GT350R priced out to $110k? The regular GT350 has at least escaped the ADM bullshit but I know the R still has some but that's the highest I've seen. Still not sure how the car is worth that though.

And yes the other nice thing about the GT500 is it will probably have a rear end that can handle the power - no bog needed....

Standard GT350s had ADMs as well. One friend of mine bought one back in 2016 and he paid a $5K markup for it. That was the lowest markup he could find and even that was after negotiating with the dealership.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The only difference is that the Shelby Super Snake is not the same as a Shelby GT500. SSS has always costed $30K-$40K more than the standard GT500. Those are more like specialty performance cars and those prices are not due to markups, that is just what they flat out cost. Performance wise they typically blow the GT500 away in just about everything and come fully loaded. Although it isn't on ZR1 level.


Standard GT350s had ADMs as well. One friend of mine bought one back in 2016 and he paid a $5K markup for it. That was the lowest markup he could find and even that was after negotiating with the dealership.

I'm talking more recently. but yeah fully aware - I don't understand why people are paying it for the Fords though - completely pushes the price out of the market in my opinion when you look at Chevy and Dodge offerings.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Mike00

A GT350R priced out to $110k? The regular GT350 has at least escaped the ADM bullshit but I know the R still has some but that's the highest I've seen. Still not sure how the car is worth that though.

And yes the other nice thing about the GT500 is it will probably have a rear end that can handle the power - no bog needed....

No, was talking about the Super Snake, not a 350R.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mike00

I'm talking more recently. but yeah fully aware - I don't understand why people are paying it for the Fords though - completely pushes the price out of the market in my opinion when you look at Chevy and Dodge offerings.

Oh ok. And yea a $5K markup on a standard GT350 pushes it into ZL1 pricing which we know it can't even compare to. The GT350R is already more expensive than the ZL1. And at that it can't beat the ZL1 at anything. The markups on it pushes it into Z06 pricing territory and...do I need to even say it? LOL! People are paying more for the Fords and then getting markups thrown at them and end of the day they're getting a lesser performance value. Even the Bullit, some of them have markups which puts them in ZL1 price range.

Originally Posted by kttxz06

No, was talking about the Super Snake, not a 350R.

Yea those aren't markups on the Super Snake. That is just what it costs. Well the dealerships just might be adding on maybe 5Gs figuring someone spending that kind of money wouldn't care about an extra 5. But they typically do cost in the high $90K - $105K-ish range at MSRP.

[Mike00]

No idea how I missed out on seeing the super snake. But $110k ehhh.... I'll go ZL1 and Hellcat at that price.

It's been a good couple years for car enthusiasts. That said the entire Mustang scenario at the moment makes no sense to me in the marketplace. Then again to be fair brand loyalty seems far stronger in the American car market than the germans or even japanese imports.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Mike00

100% agree on the alpha chassis. Hell I was originally purchase a ZL1 A10 for my car but then I figured if I go that way I should go the ZO6 since I love the looks and would prefer a M7 (the bog on the Zl1 annoys the hell out of me). But I wanted the Zl1 originally because of how beautiful handling it is.

I do agree GT500 will not catch the ZLE. I do think it could potentially use the greater power and decent handling to run similar to the regular ZL1. I also think that kind of car would attract the buyer that wants a muscle car but with some handling. I see the ZL1 as handling first with drag second - I hope the GT500 is just the opposite.



Honestly coming from german cars I have no allegiance - other than I've liked vettes since I was a kid but I always had to have a car year round because my focus was investment properties. Now I want an American fun weekend car and so I'm looking at all of them. The ZL1 to me is the performance bargain but I have to admit while I like the looks I prefer the vette.

Ford I actually prefer the exterior over the Camaro. That being said their ADM mark-up on the only decent cars they have is a huge turn off. I like the mustang, hate the performance except in the Shelby models and the ADM makes it pointless. What I don't get is all the fanboys - the GT350 is a great looking car with an incredible engine - the performance though makes it not worth it to me, especially with ADM. The GS Vette/1LE SS/ZL1 are a no brainer comparatively.

The GT 500 on other hand could be the perfect car bringing hellcat besting power with decent handling. ADM will destroy it as a real option though.

What I don't understand is how Ford is selling as much as it is. The only option I see being worth money if you aren't brand loyal is if you want to supercharge. In which case GT AUTO with a blower. Other than that I don't see the point with the Vette, Camaro, and Hellcat as options.

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I'm just curious why you assume the bold sentence above. I'm not being negative, just trying to understand the reasoning. Keep in mind that the GT350R was only a tick behind the ZL1 while having a huge hp/tq deficit, in the only same day same time head to head match up. Now the GT500 will likely have a many upgrades, a new DCT transmission and likely a significant hp/tq advantage over the ZL1/ZL1-1LE.

[Mike00]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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I'm just curious why you assume the bold sentence above. I'm not being negative, just trying to understand the reasoning. Keep in mind that the GT350R was only a tick behind the ZL1 while having a huge hp/tq deficit, in the only same day same time head to head match up. Now the GT500 will likely have a many upgrades, a new DCT transmission and likely a significant hp/tq advantage over the ZL1/ZL1-1LE.

The GT350R was only a tick behind the ZL1 (assuming you mean C&D LL) yes but far further behind the ZL1 1LE. I expect what they will do to the mustang to compete in low 10's 1/4 will keep it from catching the 1LE. The ZL1 I fully expect it to beat. I just don't see it passing the 1LE in any meaningful way.

Comparatively speaking the same performance difference across those cars is the same between the SS 1LE and GT350R. As good as the GT350 body is, it's not in the same class the Camaro chassis for handling.

A lot of it's just my belief of course. So take it for a grain a salt but if you look at the baselines for the SS 1LE, ZL1, and ZLE then compare it to GT350/R. IT's a decent starting point but doesn't look like it will overcome the ZLE unless handling is focus. I think it will be drag first, handling second so the ZL1 in reverse.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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I'm just curious why you assume the bold sentence above. I'm not being negative, just trying to understand the reasoning. Keep in mind that the GT350R was only a tick behind the ZL1 while having a huge hp/tq deficit, in the only same day same time head to head match up. Now the GT500 will likely have a many upgrades, a new DCT transmission and likely a significant hp/tq advantage over the ZL1/ZL1-1LE.

Just an FYI, but Mike was saying it won't beat the ZLE (which is short for ZL1 1LE), and the H2H was the R against the regular ZL1 (not the ZLE). And it was a bit more than a tick, it was .39 seconds. Four tenths is about four "ticks" to me. The gap between the R and the ZLE would have been substantially larger than four ticks.

All that said, I think Ford CAN produce a GT500 with 750HP that beats the ZLE around a track, but my question is, at what price? Having steel brake rotors and getting rid of the Voodoo will save some money, but can they beat the ZLE at a competitive price? Time will tell...

What was also interesting is that the R in that H2H test posted the exact same time as the SS 1LE (the times were shown in the video). It was a different day, but that is still pretty interesting. The track must have been slow that day, because I don't think the SS 1LE is as fast as the R. The regular GT350 perhaps, but I think the R is a bit faster in a same track same day scenario.