Build i4 or v6? - Page 3

wookwook · 11-10-2019, 08:17 AM

To clarify the extra 100 HP is just to get the trailing end of the torque curve to stay aligned with 322 Tq, look carefully as the green eng torque PID trails off, and the graphic only goes to 5000 RPM, so it trails off a bit in the whole range. This was a 5th gear pull. 1:1. The power pids actually line up pretty well with Dyno chart.

wookwook · 11-10-2019, 08:52 AM

Just taking a step back on the dyno vs, street dyno, here is the correct example 5th gear manual 1:1..

1. in 3rd gear the revs top out at 5500 and the torque fall off is clearly seen from the red mark at 4600k

2. 4th is a pull up to 5k with a little trail off.

3. 5th is 3800 to 4400 so the trail off isn't as apparent, but you can make the comparision with 3rd gear that it is coming.

then there is the reasonably good correlation of STD power PIDs that match well with dyno I circled..

hope that clarifies.. we need to unlock what is assumed to be a limiter in Max Engine torque.

I haven't gotten into the airmass curve as a limiter yet, so that might be solved with the Turbo upgrade, once we have people reporting the pids. I 'think' there's a bit more to be had with available airmass, but this is a work in progress.

Evil-Bee-NH · 11-10-2019, 11:29 AM

Poor OP this thread has totally went off topic.

wookwook · 11-10-2019, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowolf_rs

youd be around the same price if not more than just slapping an overkill supercharger on a v6.

27K plus 7K do the math.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...Type=spotlight

Evil-Bee-NH · 11-10-2019, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wookwook

27K plus 7K do the math.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...Type=spotlight

Your also forgetting the tuning, install etc. You can slap a ZFR for 2k and go just as fast. Add supporting engines mods like internals and MI and be well and easily past the overkill.

wookwook · 11-11-2019, 08:46 AM

I wish someone would post up the comparisons with a zfr turbo fit up. Someone is trying to sell one used on here. All Im saying is the OQE trail (objective quality evidence) is vaporware at this point. I think that is what I am struggling with at this point. Also does anyone have info on what and if the M6 trans also has a TCM style linkage that limits torque? At this point in my build Im up to the car's MSRP, mostly in the wheels and exhaust. A turbo fit up wouldn't be near as much a hit on the wallet as the v6 or v8 work. But a serious investment needs a verified roadmap? N e e d d a t a.

Evil-Bee-NH · 11-11-2019, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wookwook

I wish someone would post up the comparisons with a zfr turbo fit up. Someone is trying to sell one used on here. All Im saying is the OQE trail (objective quality evidence) is vaporware at this point. I think that is what I am struggling with at this point. Also does anyone have info on what and if the M6 trans also has a TCM style linkage that limits torque? At this point in my build Im up to the car's MSRP, mostly in the wheels and exhaust. A turbo fit up wouldn't be near as much a hit on the wallet as the v6 or v8 work. But a serious investment needs a verified roadmap? N e e d d a t a.

Your asking for things people aren't likely to share or k ow about at this stage. The few ZFRs out there aren't on here and they are rarely in stock to begin with.

wookwook · 11-11-2019, 03:52 PM

I know. I figured that out. But there are a few. crickets. Must be limited to the devs who aren't sharing. I would love to have one to street test. I mean I can load a tune as well as the next guy. Even if the ltg had to be limited to 322 TQ through the 1/4 run there's still a lot of room improvement for 2600 through 6000 rpm. The only way to test would be to put one in I guess. that's 4 years of R+D by now. ?

cooper1965 · 11-11-2019, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wookwook

there's still a lot of room improvement for 2600 through 6000 rpm

Not with a zfr there isn't. Low end is horrible, and very difficult to even get some' of the stock turbo's low end back with tuning.

Evil-Bee-NH · 11-11-2019, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooper1965

Not with a zfr there isn't. Low end is horrible, and very difficult to even get some' of the stock turbo's low end back with tuning.

I wonder if that could be remedied by MI or a quick shot of Nitrous? your gonna probably wanna think internals with that.

wookwook · 11-12-2019, 06:27 AM

yea. I did muse by the MB and BMW neighborhood take a look at their true twin scroll system. OEMs starting around 3k, before even thinking about conversion fitment. Why doesn't zzp release the tubed inlet manifold for nitrous/MI use, I wonder? do you think a 50# shot is crazy talk? It seems to fit the bill for this application, cooling, piston pressure w/o more boost, etc... maybe something I am totally clueless about.

wookwook · 11-17-2019, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cooper1965

Not with a zfr there isn't. Low end is horrible, and very difficult to even get some' of the stock turbo's low end back with tuning.

Brain damage. want to avoid That! lol...

cooper it reads like you did do this zzp ZFR before was it with the ltg? even with the light weight wheel and a 3 inch exhaust on the 6758 do you think it would be underwhelming with the spool? I have a email in to Tyler to see an actual dyno chart. In the mean time trying to make sense of compressor maps.

this is in the website. on the surface it doesn't 'sound' so bad.... I "know" Im only going for 335 TQ limited and to stretch it out as far as it will go. seems like a proportionate increase for cost compared to the cost of superchargers. don't want to be reaching boost at 3500 does it make any sense?

ZZP-

Titanium/Aluminum alloy wheel weighs 1/2 of a typical wheel

This is the turbo we have been selling for the Cobalt market since 2012. It has a 54mm compressor wheel and spools early and quick.

cooper1965 · 11-17-2019, 08:44 AM

Wook. Yes, Ive worked with a few ZFR's on the LTG, and the primary complaint has been the lack of usable power under 3500. Too the point 6th gear was almost pointless as far as highway merging speeds. Id have to dig up dyno comparisons on my external drive, but one car (forum member here) was loosing something crazy like 50hp around 2500-3500 rpm's compared to the stock turbo dyno. (same car was zzp tuned before and after I believe)

I was able to get some of that back, but not the full amount it lost. Perhaps more time with the car, that could be fixed, IDK. There wasn't an "obvious" fix for it I can say. The ZFR does move a crazy amount of air up top, thats where it wants to be. I see what your saying, and shooting for (if your goals don't change), I would have you look into a hybrid turbo for what your looking too do.

wookwook · 11-17-2019, 09:34 AM

Awesome, incredibly helpful. Thank you sir. I had been with much trepidation looking at the compressor maps.... If the borgbot is any indicator a 6458 (analog for the oem) seems to march right up the best part on the ridge of the efficiency islands. the 6758 comes in from the side more, has less efficiency in the meat of the lower bands, that you articulated perfectly in my case. thanks again, Coops. really appreciate your help.

there's got to be a better mouse trap for 4500 and up. we don't have e85 here.

11-10-2019, 08:52 AM	#30
wookwook Drives: 18 Camaro LS M6 Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: NH Posts: 698	Just taking a step back on the dyno vs, street dyno, here is the correct example 5th gear manual 1:1.. 1. in 3rd gear the revs top out at 5500 and the torque fall off is clearly seen from the red mark at 4600k 2. 4th is a pull up to 5k with a little trail off. 3. 5th is 3800 to 4400 so the trail off isn't as apparent, but you can make the comparision with 3rd gear that it is coming. then there is the reasonably good correlation of STD power PIDs that match well with dyno I circled.. hope that clarifies.. we need to unlock what is assumed to be a limiter in Max Engine torque. I haven't gotten into the airmass curve as a limiter yet, so that might be solved with the Turbo upgrade, once we have people reporting the pids. I 'think' there's a bit more to be had with available airmass, but this is a work in progress. Attached Images

11-10-2019, 11:29 AM	#31
Evil-Bee-NH 603 Camaros Drives: 2017 NGM I4 1LT Coupe Join Date: May 2012 Location: Manchester, NH Posts: 6,779 View My Garage	Poor OP this thread has totally went off topic. __________________ MY 2017 I4 CAMARO BUILD JOURNAL \| YOUTUBE \| INSTAGRAM \| 316RWHP - 385 RWTQ HPTUNERS DYNO TUNE \| 12.693s @ 105MPH 1/4 Mile

11-17-2019, 08:44 AM	#41
cooper1965 Coopers Camaro Drives: 18 Flex Fuel LTG Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: St. Louis/Sullivan/Washington MO Posts: 933	Wook. Yes, Ive worked with a few ZFR's on the LTG, and the primary complaint has been the lack of usable power under 3500. Too the point 6th gear was almost pointless as far as highway merging speeds. Id have to dig up dyno comparisons on my external drive, but one car (forum member here) was loosing something crazy like 50hp around 2500-3500 rpm's compared to the stock turbo dyno. (same car was zzp tuned before and after I believe) I was able to get some of that back, but not the full amount it lost. Perhaps more time with the car, that could be fixed, IDK. There wasn't an "obvious" fix for it I can say. The ZFR does move a crazy amount of air up top, thats where it wants to be. I see what your saying, and shooting for (if your goals don't change), I would have you look into a hybrid turbo for what your looking too do. __________________ Flex Fuel tuned by me using HPT-:- ---My Build Thread--- -----My IG PAGe-----

11-10-2019, 08:17 AM	#29
wookwook Drives: 18 Camaro LS M6 Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: NH Posts: 698	To clarify the extra 100 HP is just to get the trailing end of the torque curve to stay aligned with 322 Tq, look carefully as the green eng torque PID trails off, and the graphic only goes to 5000 RPM, so it trails off a bit in the whole range. This was a 5th gear pull. 1:1. The power pids actually line up pretty well with Dyno chart.

11-11-2019, 08:46 AM	#34
wookwook Drives: 18 Camaro LS M6 Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: NH Posts: 698	I wish someone would post up the comparisons with a zfr turbo fit up. Someone is trying to sell one used on here. All Im saying is the OQE trail (objective quality evidence) is vaporware at this point. I think that is what I am struggling with at this point. Also does anyone have info on what and if the M6 trans also has a TCM style linkage that limits torque? At this point in my build Im up to the car's MSRP, mostly in the wheels and exhaust. A turbo fit up wouldn't be near as much a hit on the wallet as the v6 or v8 work. But a serious investment needs a verified roadmap? N e e d d a t a.

11-11-2019, 03:52 PM	#36
wookwook Drives: 18 Camaro LS M6 Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: NH Posts: 698	I know. I figured that out. But there are a few. crickets. Must be limited to the devs who aren't sharing. I would love to have one to street test. I mean I can load a tune as well as the next guy. Even if the ltg had to be limited to 322 TQ through the 1/4 run there's still a lot of room improvement for 2600 through 6000 rpm. The only way to test would be to put one in I guess. that's 4 years of R+D by now. ?

11-12-2019, 06:27 AM	#39
wookwook Drives: 18 Camaro LS M6 Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: NH Posts: 698	yea. I did muse by the MB and BMW neighborhood take a look at their true twin scroll system. OEMs starting around 3k, before even thinking about conversion fitment. Why doesn't zzp release the tubed inlet manifold for nitrous/MI use, I wonder? do you think a 50# shot is crazy talk? It seems to fit the bill for this application, cooling, piston pressure w/o more boost, etc... maybe something I am totally clueless about.

11-17-2019, 09:34 AM	#42
wookwook Drives: 18 Camaro LS M6 Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: NH Posts: 698	Awesome, incredibly helpful. Thank you sir. I had been with much trepidation looking at the compressor maps.... If the borgbot is any indicator a 6458 (analog for the oem) seems to march right up the best part on the ridge of the efficiency islands. the 6758 comes in from the side more, has less efficiency in the meat of the lower bands, that you articulated perfectly in my case. thanks again, Coops. really appreciate your help. there's got to be a better mouse trap for 4500 and up. we don't have e85 here.

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