11-29-2018, 01:49 AM | #1 |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Meth without tuning for it?
Hi, This is all in the context of tracking the car (20 minute sessions with heat soak being the enemy) and having only 91 octane available
What are your thoughts on adding Meth to pick up 25 or so HP I’m leaving on the table with 91 octane and for cooling purposes (I’m not sure how much it would help combat heat soak) if I’m not tuning the car for the meth to pick up more Hp? The reason I ask this (purposely Leaving that extra HP off the table) is because I don’t like the idea of tuning a car for something, that if/when fails can have catastrophic results (Some tuners like Jannetty Racing are reluctant to use it...) and I would assume I’d still be picking up a few Hp (maybe 25) without even tuning for it because of the low octane I have. Thoughts on the value of doing this and if it would be worth it?
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 11-29-2018 at 02:32 AM. |
11-29-2018, 06:21 AM | #2 |
Drives: LSx Powered Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: 19804
Posts: 448
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Your apprehension to using it is warranted, but using a quality system with proper install has the similar likelihood of failure as a low side fuel system pump going bad. Low concern. Either way, failure could be catastrophic if the a meth. injection pump or fuel pump fails. There are ways to minimize loss, but risk of using the parts is always there.
Pure Methanol injection (VP M1), not mix or varied versions, is an excellent addition to any forced induction car. It is a supplemental fuel system, not a crutch, and has cooling properties which are amazing. Multiple benefits from meth for sure. We would not suggest it for any road race or HPDE car. Even with a progressive system it is difficult to calculate the amount used through a session, and elevates the risks of going low, especially if your Gs are pulling meth away from the pump when volume is low. Which is also why using it without boost/rpm dependent tuning is not worth the adventure. |
11-29-2018, 06:31 AM | #3 |
Drives: 18 ZL1 nightfall grey A10 Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: RGV Texas
Posts: 1,527
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I have wondered this myself. Is there any advantage to running a meth injection without tuning for it? My question is based more on street strip as there is no tracks close to me or within 300 miles of me.
Any how, what HPA just commented makes so much sense. Just wanted to see if the same would apply to the street? |
11-29-2018, 09:10 AM | #4 |
Drives: ZL1/335i Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 870
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So is this car otherwise stock? I’d think a small nozzle with a 50/50 mix (or less even) would be quite safe and effective as long as it doesn’t run so rich that it costs power. That might be tough if the car is on the stock tune, as they can run pretty rich when COT kicks in.
Even something like pure water injection could be an option. Water injection is a factory installed feature on the M4 GTS, and it’s worth about 40 hp on those cars. That’s spraying distilled water only. I don’t really see any downside to that. |
11-29-2018, 09:39 AM | #5 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Bel Air, MD
Posts: 319
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Quote:
I would still dial it in on the Dyno though to keep track of the air fuel. |
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11-29-2018, 09:40 AM | #6 | |
Drives: 2017 Camaro ZL1 Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Bel Air, MD
Posts: 319
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Quote:
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11-29-2018, 04:04 PM | #7 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
Do you offer a kit that only sprays water? And would it still give me the boost in HP that I leaving on the table by only having 91 octane? Does water help cool the SC as well as meth? I wasn’t very clear in my original post because I know very little about this, but I should have said water or meth.
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 11-30-2018 at 02:09 PM. |
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11-29-2018, 04:06 PM | #8 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
Are you limited to 91 octane like me?
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 11-29-2018 at 04:29 PM. |
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11-29-2018, 04:10 PM | #9 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
Great point about that M4, I know very little about this subject and didn’t know different levels of water and meth could be used. If I’d known that, my original post would have said water or meth, I’m not stuck on one or the other or both, just what ever would be most beneficial with least risk and it sounds like pure water is the safest option with very little risk... would it still give me the boost in HP that I leaving on the table by only having 91 octane? Does water help cool the SC as well as meth? I’ve heard Aqua Mist from the UK has a very high end kit available
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 11-29-2018 at 04:37 PM. |
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11-29-2018, 04:23 PM | #10 | |
Drives: 18 ZL1 nightfall grey A10 Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: RGV Texas
Posts: 1,527
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Quote:
Meth injection sounds so promising but I don’t feel I have enough info to be confident in it yet. |
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11-29-2018, 04:54 PM | #11 |
Drives: Chevys at the limit Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 9,621
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We can see your concerns about using meth and messing with the fuel system but we can also testify the amazing results a meth kit can add to the car. Methanol injection is a highly efficient chemical intercooler. By injecting methanol into the inlet of a supercharged car, intake air temperatures (IAT’s) can be reduced by more than 80% (depending on ambient air temperatures) and allow your tuner to run more timing and therefore making more HP. Secondly, Methanol burns at the equivalent of 110 octane fuel, effectively halting detonation that can be present with lower octane fuels. Methanol works to keep your engine cleaner, and helps remove carbon deposits that can form on the pistons, which can effective change engine compression and combustion properties.
Alky control has one of the best kits out on the market! Give either us or them a call if you have any other concerns. Cheers, Kayla L. 801.545.4215 |
11-29-2018, 11:40 PM | #12 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
In other words, you recommend it for street / drag racing or tracking or both? How much would using water instead of meth reduce IAT by? Would I use the same kit/system if just spraying/injecting water not meth?
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 11-30-2018 at 02:07 PM. |
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12-01-2018, 11:42 AM | #13 | |
Drives: ZL1/335i Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 870
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Quote:
You’re going to get different opinions on water/meth ratios. 50/50 is popular and a lot less dangerous vs pure methanol. Methanol provides a bunch of octane, but doesn’t really have the cylinder cooling effect that water does. There’s a whole bunch to consider. While water injection doesn’t add any octane, it provides cylinder cooling and knock suppression. For me, it’s always been a balance of nozzle sizing and water/meth mixture. Methanol is fuel, which means that if you’re spraying a lot, your tuner is going to have to remove fuel to compensate. I don’t like to do it that way, as you can go lean if the meth system fails. And if you’re dialing in extra timing at the same time, that can be bad. On my LS builds, I’ve typically tuned at a normal lambda (say 11.8), then added enough meth to make it about a point richer (10.8-11.0). If I were you, I’d look at a smaller nozzle and a 50/50 mixture like Snow’s Boost Juice. Use the injection system to allow full timing. There are many ways to do this safely. I’ve never tried straight water on a PD blower application, so I can’t tell you how that would work. I’m sure BMW used only distilled water for emissions reasons. I don’t think you can sell a new car spraying methanol these days. |
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12-01-2018, 12:18 PM | #14 |
'It's an experiment'
Drives: [COTW 2/09/15] '11 GPI LSA SC Z/LE Join Date: May 2014
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 8,690
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I have ProMeth on mine -- 5th Gen LSA 416 Forged, 2.45 upper, 18% lower, ported blower/snout, E85 + meth (50% Boost Juice) -- and I road race with it.
I have 2 tunes -- one for road course (progressive for WOT, fueling not tuned for meth) and one for street (Tuned to MAF hertz, progressive with meth). With the road course tune, I can safely rely on the cooling using meth (although, I have a tone of cooling and IAT2s stay below timing pull -- even with temps in the 100's here in Texas). I've found it to be a great addition -- and I have a 4 gallon tank for just meth! My ProMeth setup starts here: https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...85577&page=154 Details how Mark and myself tuned for meth... Rodney @ ProMeth worked with me to get the right setup and custom designed the kit for me -- really love mine... -Don
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"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races." - Enzo Ferrari See My Build: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385577 Last edited by hammdo; 12-01-2018 at 03:16 PM. |
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