[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

There was far more then "feel" in the 2012 ZL1 win. Very objective IMO.

That review had a lot subjective in it, which is why I said earlier you can't just go by the numbers. Some of the things you quoted from the article, are measurable some are preference some are just things they noticed while pushing the car. Example, they said the Camaro was easier to drive faster, but the Shelby had better steering input, put the power down better. That is where you need to put some subjectivity in the review to determine a winner. BC if you just read one car had better input, put power down better most would assume that car was easier to drive faster for those reasons. The point is that is why you can't just go off of pure numbers otherwise there is no point in reviewing any cars head to head

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Touche. I know your pot meet kettle comment was meant in general and not to me, as I could not care less about 1/4 mile times. My choice of cars should speak to that. Also, you have to look objectively at this and see why people are skeptical. That's a huge leap for a refresh. No real reason at this point to think that's the norm, but it could be.

Admittedly, me calling this a hero run is just as bad as the Mustang guys taking it as truth. It is too early for me to call it a hero when it is possible we see this being a repeatable time in hands of normal customers, just like its too early for Mustang trolls to come over here and start praising this time as the norm for the Mustang.

For that, I admit I am wrong. We all need to chill on this 1 time, and see what shakes out. None of us know what this new GT is capable of as of yet, we have only seen a glimpse of what it could potentially do.

As negative as I have spoken, its really out of frustration for the pile Ford presented to the market. Before I started digging deeper, I thought I would
be a Mustang owner. On the surface, the GT is a killer package. Great looks, amazing engine, excellent pricing....but then the persistent issues come up when you spend even a few days on the other forum. Its easy to get lost in all the issue threads. You don't even have to search for them, there's always a fresh one being discussed. GM doesn't exactly have a squeaky clean record of superb quality either mind you, but damn Ford really sh!t the bed this Gen. If I was a Ford Fanboy I would be pissed!!!! This GT has clearly taken a leap forward and joined the rest of the Pony cars, but it is still going to be a poor quality package overall.

For once, I just want Ford to build complete cars as well as they build engines!!

Very well said. I'll add to this. The Mustang guys over here getting all pissy are reacting that way ONLY because it is coming from a Camaro forum. I have many many times in the past seen exactly what most of us have said over here being said over on M6G. Even now, I've heard them refer to this run as a hero run. I've heard them say they'd prefer to see a true magazine H2H on the same day same track same driver. I've heard them many times express that the SS is a much better performer and that they doubt the PP2 will keep up with the SS 1LE. I've heard them express disappointment in the S550. And I've heard everything in between and then some. So the guys over here are either completely oblivious to how terrible the S550 is, or they're trying to defend their purchase, or they're trolling. And the thing is, for such a failure, what exactly would they expect to read on a Camaro forum? Have I once gone over there arguing with them about the negative things they say about the Camaro? Nope. Because I don't care what the hell they have to say. But I'll gladly speak my mind over here.

I agree with what you said about the GT tho. It does look good. It is a decent package. And it is priced very well but only if you get the base model. Once you start adding in options and that price starts going up and you're not getting any better performance then it starts becoming a horrible deal considering the better performing vehicles that would be in the same price range. And considering that you have to void the warranty to get into a performance level to match the competition also makes the base model a better deal. Also considering the depreciation. A Premium with PP will depreciate just as badly as a base GT will which is a shame.

The Mustang is indeed riddled with problems. And Ford allowed problems from the S197 to carry over into the S550 along with the additional problems the S550 has on it's own. It is clear that Ford's intent was to just sell as many Mustangs as possible without putting much effort into their quality. And that is a shame. Because you're left with a car that looks good, can be had for cheap, but has tons of issues and underperforms. If Ford addresses these with the 18 refresh then good for them. It'll make the car more appealing.

And last thing, thru all my posts I have maintained that the GT, only the GT and only from the years of 94-2010 and 15-17 have been garbage. They have. I have also said that the Termi Cobras, non-Termi Cobras, Cobra Rs, GT500s, Mach 1s, BOSS 302, and all the other higher up models (with exception of the Bullitt which is basically a more expensive GT with a different IM and no spoiler) were all awesome cars. And I said that if the 18 truly is a low 12 and at least some of the issues with the S550 have been resolved then it will be an awesome car. And despite my negative comments about the 15-17 I did mention that once you mod them from the ground up they are very fast and hard to beat especially with boost. Yet these trolls completely dismissed all of that and harped on the negative things I said despite it being true. I was around for the 2V NPI GT, the PI 2V GT, and when the 3V GT came out (even before then I had IROCs and Fox GTs/LXs). And those of us in the Mustang forums back in the early 2000s (way before M6G or even Camaro5 came around) were extremely disappointed in the GTs. I could go on about how restrictive the heads were and the small combustion chambers and the weak cams and basically no compression ratio etc but that would be an even longer post. The 3Vs brought some hope back but they still were lacking especially in cornering. It wasn't until after the 2010 Camaro came back that Ford got their shit together and put the Coyote engines in the GT and made it a beast. And then they improved it. After 2014 they took a dive yet again. Now it seems they're back on track. But the thing is, if Ford is going to make the GT respectable and keep it that way, then they have to put money into it. It can't be a cheap car with a V8 throw in it. And they have to put out something to keep up with the more powerful Camaros and Challengers. Right now they're the only ones with a V8 less than 600 hp, no forced induction, and not in the 11s. If they're gonna compete then they have to bring out a heavy hitter and soon. And it has to be comparable in price, options, handling, and performance and not have markups.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Very well said. I'll add to this. The Mustang guys over here getting all pissy are reacting that way ONLY because it is coming from a Camaro forum. I have many many times in the past seen exactly what most of us have said over here being said over on M6G. Even now, I've heard them refer to this run as a hero run. I've heard them say they'd prefer to see a true magazine H2H on the same day same track same driver. I've heard them many times express that the SS is a much better performer and that they doubt the PP2 will keep up with the SS 1LE. I've heard them express disappointment in the S550. And I've heard everything in between and then some. So the guys over here are either completely oblivious to how terrible the S550 is, or they're trying to defend their purchase, or they're trolling. And the thing is, for such a failure, what exactly would they expect to read on a Camaro forum? Have I once gone over there arguing with them about the negative things they say about the Camaro? Nope. Because I don't care what the hell they have to say. But I'll gladly speak my mind over here.

I agree with what you said about the GT tho. It does look good. It is a decent package. And it is priced very well but only if you get the base model. Once you start adding in options and that price starts going up and you're not getting any better performance then it starts becoming a horrible deal considering the better performing vehicles that would be in the same price range. And considering that you have to void the warranty to get into a performance level to match the competition also makes the base model a better deal. Also considering the depreciation. A Premium with PP will depreciate just as badly as a base GT will which is a shame.

The Mustang is indeed riddled with problems. And Ford allowed problems from the S197 to carry over into the S550 along with the additional problems the S550 has on it's own. It is clear that Ford's intent was to just sell as many Mustangs as possible without putting much effort into their quality. And that is a shame. Because you're left with a car that looks good, can be had for cheap, but has tons of issues and underperforms. If Ford addresses these with the 18 refresh then good for them. It'll make the car more appealing.

And last thing, thru all my posts I have maintained that the GT, only the GT and only from the years of 94-2010 and 15-17 have been garbage. They have. I have also said that the Termi Cobras, non-Termi Cobras, Cobra Rs, GT500s, Mach 1s, BOSS 302, and all the other higher up models (with exception of the Bullitt which is basically a more expensive GT with a different IM and no spoiler) were all awesome cars. And I said that if the 18 truly is a low 12 and at least some of the issues with the S550 have been resolved then it will be an awesome car. And despite my negative comments about the 15-17 I did mention that once you mod them from the ground up they are very fast and hard to beat especially with boost. Yet these trolls completely dismissed all of that and harped on the negative things I said despite it being true. I was around for the 2V NPI GT, the PI 2V GT, and when the 3V GT came out (even before then I had IROCs and Fox GTs/LXs). And those of us in the Mustang forums back in the early 2000s (way before M6G or even Camaro5 came around) were extremely disappointed in the GTs. I could go on about how restrictive the heads were and the small combustion chambers and the weak cams and basically no compression ratio etc but that would be an even longer post. The 3Vs brought some hope back but they still were lacking especially in cornering. It wasn't until after the 2010 Camaro came back that Ford got their shit together and put the Coyote engines in the GT and made it a beast. And then they improved it. After 2014 they took a dive yet again. Now it seems they're back on track. But the thing is, if Ford is going to make the GT respectable and keep it that way, then they have to put money into it. It can't be a cheap car with a V8 throw in it. And they have to put out something to keep up with the more powerful Camaros and Challengers. Right now they're the only ones with a V8 less than 600 hp, no forced induction, and not in the 11s. If they're gonna compete then they have to bring out a heavy hitter and soon. And it has to be comparable in price, options, handling, and performance and not have markups.

You're right, and the lack of performance with the GT would have me, as an enthusiast, pissed off at Ford if I were a Ford guy. Why be blindly loyal to a manufacturer in the first place, and then still when they don't even bother giving you a car worth buying on top of it?

GM actually listens to the enthusiasts, to a fault at times I will admit, and gives us AMAZING performance machines. FFS...we have a Camaro that is faster than most C7 Corvettes right now, and the Top Dog Mustang can't even beat the Camaro 1LE in many instances.

All of what I am saying is towards the pre-2018 Mustangs of course, but as a Ford guy how can you not be disappointed with the 15-17? I mean come on, don't you want more? Its almost 2018 for heavens sake. They hate the LT1 for being a push-rod dinosaur, but are okay with their top dog Mustang being bench marked against a car that's out of production? If they were half as hard on the Mustang as they are on the Camaro that forum would have no members left. Many people over look faults with the cars they love, and hate on faults of the competition even when the competition isn't 'really' their competition anymore. What's next, the S650 base GT is bench marked against the V6 1LE?

Ford, you can do better than this next Generation so PLEASE do. I don't want GM getting complacent because they can, like Ford did until 2010 as you mentioned.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

latest dyno. ~38x rwhp 36x rwtq depending on pull.

God the front of that is hideous. Not to be mean, but it looks like it has downs syndrome. That wing looks like ass too...15-17 looks better.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You're right, and the lack of performance with the GT would have me, as an enthusiast, pissed off at Ford if I were a Ford guy. Why be blindly loyal to a manufacturer in the first place, and then still when they don't even bother giving you a car worth buying on top of it?

Because ¼ mile performance has never been the end all determining factor for most pony car buyers. If people intentionally purchase the slower car in droves, it’s a clear indicator that there is something more to the equation. Blind loyalty will occur with every manufacturer, but that’s not what were talking about here. The mustang obviously has characteristics that have allowed it to be more than competitive in the market compared to the camaro.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

GM actually listens to the enthusiasts, to a fault at times I will admit, and gives us AMAZING performance machines. FFS...we have a Camaro that is faster than most C7 Corvettes right now, and the Top Dog Mustang can't even beat the Camaro 1LE in many instances. .

And you have a car with features that turnoff potential buyers (the fault you’re talking about).

Originally Posted by ST1LE

All of what I am saying is towards the pre-2018 Mustangs of course, but as a Ford guy how can you not be disappointed with the 15-17? I mean come on, don't you want more?

Want more? Sure…need more? Most people don’t…and those that think they do will be caught up with trying to keep up in the “I have the fastest car” market.

In the end, those that chose the mustang chose it knowing it was slower. Why would they then turnaround and be disappointed?

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Its almost 2018 for heavens sake. They hate the LT1 for being a push-rod dinosaur, but are okay with their top dog Mustang being bench marked against a car that's out of production? If they were half as hard on the Mustang as they are on the Camaro that forum would have no members left. Many people over look faults with the cars they love, and hate on faults of the competition even when the competition isn't 'really' their competition anymore. What's next, the S650 base GT is bench marked against the V6 1LE?

Ford, you can do better than this next Generation so PLEASE do. I don't want GM getting complacent because they can, like Ford did until 2010 as you mentioned.

I have nothing but love for pushrod motors….love tinkering and working on them. With that said, people seek out different things. Higher revving engines with peaky powerbands appeal to quite a few people. Ford hit the nail on the head with the coyote….as they have no competition from GM or Chrysler for people seeking out a DOHC v8 “muscle” car.

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You're right, and the lack of performance with the GT would have me, as an enthusiast, pissed off at Ford if I were a Ford guy. Why be blindly loyal to a manufacturer in the first place, and then still when they don't even bother giving you a car worth buying on top of it?

GM actually listens to the enthusiasts, to a fault at times I will admit, and gives us AMAZING performance machines. FFS...we have a Camaro that is faster than most C7 Corvettes right now, and the Top Dog Mustang can't even beat the Camaro 1LE in many instances.

All of what I am saying is towards the pre-2018 Mustangs of course, but as a Ford guy how can you not be disappointed with the 15-17? I mean come on, don't you want more? Its almost 2018 for heavens sake. They hate the LT1 for being a push-rod dinosaur, but are okay with their top dog Mustang being bench marked against a car that's out of production? If they were half as hard on the Mustang as they are on the Camaro that forum would have no members left. Many people over look faults with the cars they love, and hate on faults of the competition even when the competition isn't 'really' their competition anymore. What's next, the S650 base GT is bench marked against the V6 1LE?

Ford, you can do better than this next Generation so PLEASE do. I don't want GM getting complacent because they can, like Ford did until 2010 as you mentioned.

What percent of people leave their cars stock whether GT or SS in this forum of mustang forums? Ford offers plenty of power options covered by warranty.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

God the front of that is hideous. Not to be mean, but it looks like it has downs syndrome. That wing looks like ass too...15-17 looks better.

Own it! Looks like dog shit.

[Speedofsound]

LMR going back to track with drag pack and resonator delete.

[Speedofsound]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Own it! Looks like dog shit.

I like the design, but really wish it went down further, bottom of bumper is too far off the ground. The PP2 looks great because the lip below the bumper gives it that lowered look.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

LMR going back to track with drag pack and resonator delete.

Should go about 11.6 to be comparable to SS. If the air is as good as before

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Because ¼ mile performance has never been the end all determining factor for most pony car buyers. If people intentionally purchase the slower car in droves, it’s a clear indicator that there is something more to the equation. Blind loyalty will occur with every manufacturer, but that’s not what were talking about here. The mustang obviously has characteristics that have allowed it to be more than competitive in the market compared to the camaro.

I intentionally tried to make it clear I was speaking from the mind of and addressing only enthusiasts in my post. The masses are asses, who cares why they do what they do?

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And you have a car with features that turnoff potential buyers (the fault you’re talking about).

Exactly what I meant!

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Want more? Sure…need more? Most people don’t…and those that think they do will be caught up with trying to keep up in the “I have the fastest car” market.

"Most people dont" Pls see above, not talking most.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

In the end, those that chose the mustang chose it knowing it was slower. Why would they then turnaround and be disappointed?

Not 'them', the enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I have nothing but love for pushrod motors….love tinkering and working on them. With that said, people seek out different things. Higher revving engines with peaky powerbands appeal to quite a few people. Ford hit the nail on the head with the coyote….as they have no competition from GM or Chrysler for people seeking out a DOHC v8 “muscle” car.

AGREED! Check my sig, and what I drive now. I think you and I are quite similar in reality it seems we share very similar likes and opinions.

[KingLT1]

It's a good time to own a Ford, Chevy or Dodge...all 3 are making some killer rides.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You're right, and the lack of performance with the GT would have me, as an enthusiast, pissed off at Ford if I were a Ford guy. Why be blindly loyal to a manufacturer in the first place, and then still when they don't even bother giving you a car worth buying on top of it?

GM actually listens to the enthusiasts, to a fault at times I will admit, and gives us AMAZING performance machines. FFS...we have a Camaro that is faster than most C7 Corvettes right now, and the Top Dog Mustang can't even beat the Camaro 1LE in many instances.

All of what I am saying is towards the pre-2018 Mustangs of course, but as a Ford guy how can you not be disappointed with the 15-17? I mean come on, don't you want more? Its almost 2018 for heavens sake. They hate the LT1 for being a push-rod dinosaur, but are okay with their top dog Mustang being bench marked against a car that's out of production? If they were half as hard on the Mustang as they are on the Camaro that forum would have no members left. Many people over look faults with the cars they love, and hate on faults of the competition even when the competition isn't 'really' their competition anymore. What's next, the S650 base GT is bench marked against the V6 1LE?

Ford, you can do better than this next Generation so PLEASE do. I don't want GM getting complacent because they can, like Ford did until 2010 as you mentioned.

I don't think GM will ever get complacent despite what Ford does because GM is always aiming at the supercars and elite hypercars etc. Even back in the 90s and early 2000s GM was coming at the Ferraris and Lambos etc. They went head to head against the Viper and even developed the 90s ZR1 to step their game up. And the thing is that the Camaro gets the trickle down from what they do with the Corvette. So as long as they're aiming the Vette at the top dogs then the Camaro will continue to be awesome and improve. Ford basically just tries to keep up with the Camaro. On a side note, I would love to see how this upcoming ZR1 stacks up against the GTR.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't think GM will ever get complacent despite what Ford does because GM is always aiming at the supercars and elite hypercars etc. Even back in the 90s and early 2000s GM was coming at the Ferraris and Lambos etc. They went head to head against the Viper and even developed the 90s ZR1 to step their game up. And the thing is that the Camaro gets the trickle down from what they do with the Corvette. So as long as they're aiming the Vette at the top dogs then the Camaro will continue to be awesome and improve. Ford basically just tries to keep up with the Camaro. On a side note, I would love to see how this upcoming ZR1 stacks up against the GTR.

Oh man, thanks for the laugh.