Dyno Battle: GT350, GT350R, and Camaro Z/28

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by G6Flyer

You continue to look at everything backwards. It's really unbelievable...

"The Z28 was a magazine car to give Chevy cred. It made the historically lumbering Camaro beat Porsche's. Cool! But it was never a serious production car."

THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON I BOUGHT A Z/28!!!!

"The GT350 and GT350R now force GM to compete..."

WHICH CAR WAS RELEASED FIRST?! WHO MADE WHOM COMPETE?!

If I wanted a refined and civilized 4-seat car (like the ZL1), I would have bought a CTS-V instead.

After driving a ZL1, I had to ask if there was a valet switch or if the car was broke. For 580hp it felt weak. Maybe too refined and civilized? The raw Z/28 FEELS better. Drive one and you'll see...

In the meantime, with the post above, you have pretty much summed up why most of us bought a Z/28. Ironically, you made the points as part of a post deriding the Z/28. You really are messed up in the head.


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You're too busy defending your purchase than actually acknowledging what I'm saying

GM could release the Z28 in 2014 as-is because they had no competition. They cannot take the same approach in 2017. The Gen 6 Z28 will have to be a fully functioning, well-optioned car to compete with the mass market or it may as well not bother. They'll only sell a handful.

[G6Flyer]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

You're too busy defending your purchase than actually acknowledging what I'm saying

GM could release the Z28 in 2014 as-is because they had no competition. They cannot take the same approach in 2017. The Gen 6 Z28 will have to be a fully functioning, well-optioned car to compete with the mass market or it may as well not bother. They'll only sell a handful.

What you're saying is irrelevant to this thread. You (in numerous threads) bloviate about the Gen 6 Camaro vs. Mustang. This is a thread (and forum) about the Gen 5 Camaro, and in particular the Gen 5 Z/28. That's why I am discussing my experience with the Gen 5 Z/28.

I literally could not care any less about the Gen 6 Camaro or how it compares to the Mustang or any other car. I really dislike the way the new Camaro styling, which is why my next car is likely to be a GT350/350R (like I've already stated in this post).




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[backtotintops]

Originally Posted by Crushinator

I've owned 86 cars. Four Z06's, (one ECS supercharged at 850 horsepower) a supercharged C5, two Shelby GT500's, (one 875 horsepower) two Dodge Vipers...just to name a few. The Z/28 is a better overall car than anything I've owned.

3 pcars including 500hp 930
2 vipers including 01 ACR

none come close to this car in ANY way ...except the stereo was better in the viper

ps...I commute 200 miles a day...and loooove it! Enjoy your 350r when you get one...I think it will be an awesome ride too.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by G6Flyer

What you're saying is irrelevant to this thread. You (in numerous threads) bloviate about the Gen 6 Camaro vs. Mustang. This is a thread (and forum) about the Gen 5 Camaro, and in particular the Gen 5 Z/28. That's why I am discussing my experience with the Gen 5 Z/28.

I literally could not care any less about the Gen 6 Camaro or how it compares to the Mustang or any other car. I really dislike the way the new Camaro styling, which is why my next car is likely to be a GT350/350R (like I've already stated in this post).




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Did you read the original article?

It is a dyno comparison between two 6G Mustangs and a 5G Z28 - two cars just beginning production VS an out of production car. You should care how the 6G Camaro compares to the Mustang, because this Mustang is competing with the 6G Camaro. 5G Z28 sales figures don't mean anything to GM anymore because they're not selling 5G Z28's anymore.

[sh233252]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

You're missing the point. My point is that the Gen 5 Z28 is a niche car, and that was OK because they had no one to compete against. The Z28 was simply a statement for the magazines to give GM cred. Gen 6 is a different situation - they have a direct competitor in the GT350/GT350R, and as a result really has to up their game for Gen 6. The Gen 5 Z28 will not fly against the GT350/GT350R. They need to make a Z28 that's a competitor with comfort options. GM can make a super stripped down option for the Z28 that has no bells and whistles and no back seat, but they need a base Z28 that is fully optioned like a 2SS.

Not sure if you are so narrow minded to not realize that adding features like heated seats, touch screen and all the other "bells and whistles" are and let me make this clear, a very easy addition to any vehicle. So I don't believe that GM really needs to "try" very hard to do that in a possible gen 6 camaro. What GM did before Ford was make a track specific car, whether you think or anyone else thinks it's a niche car. Plenty of people have enjoyed the car since its launch and plenty more to come.

You should just drop your complaining and for that matter your explanation of your opinion since you stated it more then enough times on a forum that is for 5th gen z/28s. If you wanna whine and complaining about the car and go on how it doesn't suite 'your needs' I'm sure the guys over at mustang6g will love to hear all about it as they get all worked up about how awesome the z/28 is! Owners of these cars know it's not for everyone, but the car is surely for all of the owners on here!

[G6Flyer]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

Did you read the original article?

It is a dyno comparison between two 6G Mustangs and a 5G Z28 - two cars just beginning production VS an out of production car. You should care how the 6G Camaro compares to the Mustang, because this Mustang is competing with the 6G Camaro. 5G Z28 sales figures don't mean anything to GM anymore because they're not selling 5G Z28's anymore.

Of course I read the article. It's about the LS7 which has nothing to do with 6G Camaros...

Did you not read my post?!

I literally could not care any less about the Gen 6 Camaro. I don't plan to buy a Gen 6 Camaro. I don't care how it sells. I don't care how it competes against the Mustang or any other car.

If I did care about ANY of those things I'd be on the Camaro 6 forum. But I'm on the Camaro 5 forum because I own a 5th Gen Camaro and like it for all of the reasons YOU have pointed out in this thread.

You (incorrectly) think a car has to sell in huge numbers to be a success. The Z/28 is not the end all, be all, but you've heard from enough Z/28 owners to know it is an AWESOME car. If you choose to not believe that, it's up to you.

You've wasted enough of my time.

G6 - out.


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[dontlift19]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

No, I'm telling you like it is. The Z28 is a niche car because of these things. There is only one Z28 - the GT350 is the 'R' package - the GT350 is a full-featured bells-and-whistles car, and even with the 'R' package is much better optioned than the Z28. The Z28 had no direct competition in 2014. Now it does, so that approach will not fly with the 6th Gen if they want to sell more than 2,000 units over 2 years.



The GT350R has full navigation, variable exhaust control and variable ride control, as well as a full featured stereo with touchscreen. The back seats argument is meaningless unless you're going to bash the Corvette for the same reason. The back seats in the 6th Gen aren't very usable (unlike the 5th Gen), so we will have to open up an argument for the entire Camaro platform, then. The GT350 is fully usable. The Z28 for Gen 5 did not have a friendlier option.


Legend has it the Z28's tires are useless in anything but perfect conditions. Still, the GT350R has variable suspension controls. The Z28 is much more basic. Again, for Gen 5 it didn't matter because they had no direct competition. For Gen 6, they need to upgrade!


Yes. All the time. If I am spending $80,000 on a car after taxes, I want a warm ass when it's 30 degrees out. And no, my $80,000 car isn't hibernating in storage 6 months a year.


You're missing the point. My point is that the Gen 5 Z28 is a niche car, and that was OK because they had no one to compete against. The Z28 was simply a statement for the magazines to give GM cred. Gen 6 is a different situation - they have a direct competitor in the GT350/GT350R, and as a result really has to up their game for Gen 6. The Gen 5 Z28 will not fly against the GT350/GT350R. They need to make a Z28 that's a competitor with comfort options. GM can make a super stripped down option for the Z28 that has no bells and whistles and no back seat, but they need a base Z28 that is fully optioned like a 2SS.

The z28 may have a higher msrp than the gt350r, but if you wanna talk real world prices the z28 is much cheaper. There's a link to a ad in the z28 forum for a brand new z28 for $56k, the gt350r's are gonna be marked up to $80k+. So for that big of a price difference the gt350r should better equipped. A car is worth what people will pay for it, not the msrp.


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[wakespeak]

The latest Mustang platform is only even with the Gen5 in terms of handling. The 1LE is better than the GT/Track Pack from what I have read. The Mustang is bouncy on the street and mushy on the track. Sure the GT350 is better than the GT, but to say it has a better starting platform than the Z/28 is not correct. The Mustang only slightly lighter with too much front/rear overhang for handling. I am talking about Motor Trend's review and Car and Drivers latest VIR track tests.

It will just get worse for Ford with the Gen6. I do like the flat plane crank engine however, which does it all without DI or AFM. I would predict a revised, lightened, platform in a year or two. I also predict the Z28 will be the track car of choice for real enthusiasts even years from now after the Gen6 release due to the easy to work with LS7 and basic outstanding handling.

[Wilbur]

NO YOU are missing the point!! Bottom line, you have never driven one, you don't own one, when you do, then try to convince us, (the ones who own one) how it drives, feels, handles, stops or anything thing else.

No one buys a race car for the navigation!!!!! You are trying to justifying not being able to afford one or buy one by knocking it as some niche. I am quite happy to buy a niche car that out performs 99% of any manufacturer at the track and gets more looks than any mustang.

Your arguments are really pointless. We own a car that is the epitome of american muscle, has a nasty 7 liter, 7k redline motor. I would like to see any NA mustang put down 600 whp like my Z28 is doing!!

[USAFS197]

I'm sure you will see 600whp from a GT350/R in short order. I'm also sure it'll make that while still spinning to 8500rpm.

This pissing contest has run it's course, fellas.

[Wilbur]

Bring any mustang you want, and watch me hand their ass's to them time and time again!! The dyno sheet speaks volumes, no one, and I mean no one will look at the 3 comparisons of those lines and pick the mustangs, NOT ONE!!

More displacement, more torque, more hp at lower rpms = More usable power at the track or on the road.

The pissing contest is over when I want it to be over, not when you tell me.

Thanks though for your input.

[Battlezone580]

I can't wait to see how the GT350.R compares to the Z/28. Didn't ford claim the GT350.R ran 7:32.19 on the nurburgring without proof or on board video?

Originally Posted by Wilbur

NO YOU are missing the point!! Bottom line, you have never driven one, you don't own one, when you do, then try to convince us, (the ones who own one) how it drives, feels, handles, stops or anything thing else.

No one buys a race car for the navigation!!!!! You are trying to justifying not being able to afford one or buy one by knocking it as some niche. I am quite happy to buy a niche car that out performs 99% of any manufacturer at the track and gets more looks than any mustang.

Your arguments are really pointless. We own a car that is the epitome of american muscle, has a nasty 7 liter, 7k redline motor. I would like to see any NA mustang put down 600 whp like my Z28 is doing!!

Looking at all the numbers your right, it seems this flat crank plane doesn't seem to have any advantage? Z/28 has more torque at lower rpms and can pull out of a corner faster...

When are the going to release a real time for the GT350.R on the nurburgin track?? With video proof lol.

[Crushinator]

Originally Posted by DreamDiesel420

I can't wait to see how the GT350.R compares to the Z/28. Didn't ford claim the GT350.R ran 7:32.19 on the nurburgring without proof or on board video?



Looking at all the numbers your right, it seems this flat crank plane doesn't seem to have any advantage? Z/28 has more torque at lower rpms and can pull out of a corner faster...

When are the going to release a real time for the GT350.R on the nurburgin track?? With video proof lol.

If in did in fact run a 7:32, I'm sure it was on a 100% dry track for the entire run. There's no doubt the Z/28 would've been in the very low 7:30's, had the entire track been dry. If you watch the video of the Z/28 and ZL1 side by side, the Z/28 is a good 10 seconds ahead of the ZL1 at the 5:50 mark...only to beat it by 4 seconds. So the rain definitely slowed the Z/28 down. Too bad GM never released a time for a dry track.

But all you'll hear is the Ford beat the Z by 5 seconds so it's obviously a better track car...and maybe it is. But give the Z/28 a fair shot.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Originally Posted by andig

I still don't get why there is so much angst towards the Z/28. A bit like Crushinator, I have been lucky to own a number of high end cars over the years and in my opinion the Z/28 is something really special...to me at least, which at the end of the day is all that matters.

When I am asked what is so special about a Camaro with big tires and a body kit, I reckon it comes down to three words "fitness for purpose" it is a hardcore street legal track car that the GM engineers did a phenomenal job with and it wasn't just about raiding the leftover GM parts bin....spool valve dampers.....Brembo carbon ceramics.....Recaro's are definitely not leftovers!

Does this mean the car is hard riding, noisy and a bit uncomfortable on the street? Absolutely and I love it because of what it is.

An then there is the angst about price. $75k is a lot of money for a Camaro that starts at $25k but so is spending $175k on a 911 GT3 RS when you can buy a 911 Carrera for $95k.

I was also clearly one of the fools that paid close to list over a year ago. Do I wish I could have got it for $60k now? Sure, but I don't lose any sleep over it and I have had an absolute blast driving it for the past year rather than surfing the net waiting for the price to come down!

Finally, the GT350R. I think it is fabulous that Ford have built it and given all of us car nuts another weapon to choose from. Is it better than a Z/28? Probably and it damn well should be but again do I care? Not a bit!

Rant over - let's all just enjoy our cars, whatever make, model, performance level.

Andy

Well said