[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Yeah well, when their pay doesnt increase by the same inflation rate and most likely dropped like most middle income folks, 60K is alot more than just a rise in inflation. Many people keep lossing more an more in their wallets every year because their pay stays the same or doesnt keep up with inflation. This makes a 60k truck look crazy, which it is no matter how you slice it.

Of course I know that. I just didn't dive into that topic given its political nature which is against the rules here and my own aversion to politics. It was mostly a reply to back fenwick saying it was unfair to compare the cost of a truck back in 2001 to today given inflation.



The topic of the purchasing power of the average American decreasing due to stagnant wages making products which prices have kept up with inflation more expensive is another subject and can easily fall into the political debate which is not allowed on the forums hence my avoidance of that connected topic.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Of course I know that. I just didn't dive into that topic given its political nature which is against the rules here and my own aversion to politics. It was mostly a reply to back fenwick saying it was unfair to compare the cost of a truck back in 2001 to today given inflation.



The topic of the purchasing power of the average American decreasing due to stagnant wages making products which prices have kept up with inflation more expensive is another subject and can easily fall into the political debate which is not allowed on the forums hence my avoidance of that connected topic.

I get you. I dont see it as political untill you starting blaming someone for why. Lol

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Ponchonutty

Well I guess I’m just too old. My last new truck I bought is my current 01 Silverado which is completely loaded and I spent less than $20k out the door. Also back several years ago I was watching a program where a GM exec was talking about their products and he said something that felt sort of odd. He said GM will be adjusting their pricing upwards to align to premium brands like Mercedes, Acura, RangeRover and the like. That about made choke on my spit! I thought to myself why don’t they make a quality product that actually competes with premium brands? Raising pricing to match premium brands doesn’t mean it’s suddenly worth the increased price

Again, I feel like you are complaining while comparing apples and oranges here. That statement was made regarding Cadillac. Certainly not the Chevrolet brand.

Also, while you certainly can't get any truck for 20K out the door anymore, I'm sure that price was well under MSRP, just as you can have most full size trucks now days for a good 8 - 12 grand or more off of MSRP fairly easily.

Why do people want a "luxury" truck? The same reason people want anything. People like stuff, and most people like fancy stuff. When it comes to cars and trucks, that means certain features and amenities. Its simple. Does anyone need anything more than a basic vehicle that gets its job done? Of course not. But we want what we want. If people are going to buy it, then the manufactures should sell it.

[Expunge]

March 2002 I bought my 02 S10 ZR2 5 speed manual for 19.5K (Dealer invoice with a 3K rebate.)

Fast forward 16 years and the new Colorado ZR2's start at double that for dealer invoice. That is what Ponchonutty is trying to get across is the (IMO) insane price hike on these trucks, especially within the last 5 to 6 years.

I understand all about inflation and what not.. but these manufacturer's are going to reach a tipping point of where people just cant afford these vehicles. Case in point, they now have 8 year loans for these high dollar trucks.. insane.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Expunge

March 2002 I bought my 02 S10 ZR2 5 speed manual for 19.5K (Dealer invoice with a 3K rebate.)

Fast forward 16 years and the new Colorado ZR2's start at double that for dealer invoice. That is what Ponchonutty is trying to get across is the (IMO) insane price hike on these trucks, especially within the last 5 to 6 years.

I understand all about inflation and what not.. but these manufacturer's are going to reach a tipping point of where people just cant afford these vehicles. Case in point, they now have 8 year loans for these high dollar trucks.. insane.

I'm sure that some $25k truck truck loans are stretched out to 8 years too, and I'd bet those ones have a much higher risk of being defaulted on than for a loan worth 3 times as much.

For anybody who don't want to pay 70k for a pickup truck, the solution is very very simple: don't get one. Its not as if those are the only trucks that you can buy. You can still get something pretty decent for half that, and a basic truck for even less (especially when you apply incentives).

One other thing to keep in mind, maybe more than inflation, is longevity. Over the last ~40 years, vehicle life has gone from about 100k miles to around 200k. So even if someone doesn't hold onto their truck until the wheels fall off, they don't need to replace it quite as often as they would in the past. Maybe hang onto it for an extra couple of years, because its still fine. That longer ownership period provides a counter to the higher price/longer loan period.

The other side effect of this increased longevity is better used vehicles. Imagine two buyers, seperated by 20 years. Each buys a truck and uses it for 5 years. The guy from 1998 bought new, while the guy from 2018 bought a 2 year old used truck. After 5 years of equivalent use, odds are 2018 guy has a truck with more life left in it than his counterpart who had bought new 2 decades earlier. That adds a whole new dimension to the affordability picture.

[KMPrenger]

35K -ish buys you a decent crew cab 4x4 truck these days, even if the MSRP is actually in the low to mid 40s.

I'm not trying to argue that trucks are cheap. No way. I'm just saying, that while the MSRP on trucks is crazy, actual out the door prices are typically much better unless you are buying something special or want to be one of the first people on the block driving a new generation.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Expunge

March 2002 I bought my 02 S10 ZR2 5 speed manual for 19.5K (Dealer invoice with a 3K rebate.)

Fast forward 16 years and the new Colorado ZR2's start at double that for dealer invoice. That is what Ponchonutty is trying to get across is the (IMO) insane price hike on these trucks, especially within the last 5 to 6 years.

I understand all about inflation and what not.. but these manufacturer's are going to reach a tipping point of where people just cant afford these vehicles. Case in point, they now have 8 year loans for these high dollar trucks.. insane.

There is nothing in common between the S10 line of vehicles compared to the current Colorado / Canyon line of vehicles. Part of the reason behind the name change. Compare a Mk II Jetta or Golf to a Mk VI or Mk VII Jetta or Golf. Or even better, look at what Honda Accord and Toyota Camry were (and cost) in 2002 compared to now. In both those cases, Honda and Toyota inserted new, smaller cars under them to take their place on the price ladder. No need to do that with pickups, though. There is such a thing as “too small”. In today’s auto world, S10 would be too small.

If you wanna have some fun, park a Colorado Crew Cab next to a GMT400 Silverado Extended Cab. Right about the same size.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I'm sure that some $25k truck truck loans are stretched out to 8 years too, and I'd bet those ones have a much higher risk of being defaulted on than for a loan worth 3 times as much.

For anybody who don't want to pay 70k for a pickup truck, the solution is very very simple: don't get one. Its not as if those are the only trucks that you can buy. You can still get something pretty decent for half that, and a basic truck for even less (especially when you apply incentives).

One other thing to keep in mind, maybe more than inflation, is longevity. Over the last ~40 years, vehicle life has gone from about 100k miles to around 200k. So even if someone doesn't hold onto their truck until the wheels fall off, they don't need to replace it quite as often as they would in the past. Maybe hang onto it for an extra couple of years, because its still fine. That longer ownership period provides a counter to the higher price/longer loan period.

The other side effect of this increased longevity is better used vehicles. Imagine two buyers, seperated by 20 years. Each buys a truck and uses it for 5 years. The guy from 1998 bought new, while the guy from 2018 bought a 2 year old used truck. After 5 years of equivalent use, odds are 2018 guy has a truck with more life left in it than his counterpart who had bought new 2 decades earlier. That adds a whole new dimension to the affordability picture.

You know I typed out a big long rebuttal to your post here, and as I was just about to hit submit, I figured what's the point.
Ill just stay with this instead.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Really expensive trucks subsidize the shitty little cars companies have to build to meet CAFE standards. And those cars enable the production of some cars with not-so-great fuel economy... the cars we like. So I am thankful people are willing to spend a lot of money on trucks!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Really expensive trucks subsidize the shitty little cars companies have to build to meet CAFE standards. And those cars enable the production of some cars with not-so-great fuel economy... the cars we like. So I am thankful people are willing to spend a lot of money on trucks!

Iron Lung Jimmy gets it.

[Ponchonutty]

I was referring back to what someone else had stated about the fast increase in pricing in just the last 5 or so years. Compound that with financing makes it even worse. Not only spending more money on the vehicle itself, if you finance it because of a higher price, you pay even more. More money loaned out even at low APR, is more money for the car makers and financers while middle class income is stagnant. I certainly understand inflation but it use to be income would follow that, it doesn’t. Also, I spoke to a very high GM executive a long while ago about their pricing games. They like high MSRP with heavy rebates and discounts. The reason is that it conditions the next buyer to pay more. Also, even though I love GM vehicles and own several, I don’t think the value is really there. Yeah some of the drivetrain is great but MAN DO THESE THINGS RUST LIKE CRAZY NOW!!! I look at my 2008 Yukon compared to my son’s older Mercedes and I am befuddled! His car that’s older and has more miles has nearly no rust where my Yukon has had to have several rust repairs along with very expensive suspension repairs too

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Ponchonutty

I was referring back to what someone else had stated about the fast increase in pricing in just the last 5 or so years. Compound that with financing makes it even worse. Not only spending more money on the vehicle itself, if you finance it because of a higher price, you pay even more. More money loaned out even at low APR, is more money for the car makers and financers while middle class income is stagnant. I certainly understand inflation but it use to be income would follow that, it doesn’t. Also, I spoke to a very high GM executive a long while ago about their pricing games. They like high MSRP with heavy rebates and discounts. The reason is that it conditions the next buyer to pay more. Also, even though I love GM vehicles and own several, I don’t think the value is really there. Yeah some of the drivetrain is great but MAN DO THESE THINGS RUST LIKE CRAZY NOW!!! I look at my 2008 Yukon compared to my son’s older Mercedes and I am befuddled! His car that’s older and has more miles has nearly no rust where my Yukon has had to have several rust repairs along with very expensive suspension repairs too

Yeah, and wait til rates go back to more normal levels. We have been living in a dream world with interest rates for a long time. 70k trucks will be sitting on lots when rates go back to 5, 6, 7 percent. My credit union is already at 8.49 for 85 to 120 months. Here are two screen shots of what that interest looks like for 85months and 120months. Wow! Pay an extra $23,000 to $34,000 in interest. So is 2018 quality that much better than 10 years ago to yield paying over 100K for truck. I dont think so for the fellows making that argument. This cant keep going. It will come to a crashing halt.

[Ponchonutty]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Yeah, and wait til rates go back to more normal levels. We have been living in a dream world with interest rates for a long time. 70k trucks will be sitting on lots when rates go back to 5, 6, 7 percent. My credit union is already at 8.49 for 85 to 120 months. Here are two screen shots of what that interest looks like for 85months and 120months. Wow! Pay an extra $23,000 to $34,000 in interest. So is 2018 quality that much better than 10 years ago to yield paying over 100K for truck. I dont think so for the fellows making that argument. This cant keep going. It will come to a crashing halt.

Amen brotha! That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The sad thing is most don’t understand how loans and interest rates work. People go into dealers and say “I can’t pay over this about per month.” Dealers love it because they simply backward compute the loan amount t to match or come close to whatever “that” amount is. Heck, I have it all the time dealers ordering stuff from me and I will ask “don’t you want a price quote?” The response once was “nah, I’ve already screwed them hard enough on the deal, I’m not worried about the price .”

[Ponchonutty]

BTW, here’s an example of virtually any GM truck that’s just a few years old. Almost as bad as Dodge trucks are these days!!!!