[Tankk]

Yes I too have noticed that and I just ignore the comments and sometimes the article!

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I wonder how that 69 Vette would be on modern tires. I love my SS but I'd give up my SS and a left nut for a 69 427 Stingray. Loads of torque.

Your SS makes roughly the same peak torque at the same RPM with lower displacement, delivers it quicker, more efficiently, and through a significantly better transmission. The gap isn't just tires.

[MR's 2SS]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

I wonder how that 69 Vette would be on modern tires. I love my SS but I'd give up my SS and a left nut for a 69 427 Stingray. Loads of torque.

That was one of those cars I just really NEEDED.... I traded a 72 Goat with 400SB and auto which was pristine... plus 2,000 dollars for the Vette. Burgundy 427, 4 speed, white top. Completely stock and beautiful.
As I look back, the car I wish I still had the most... is the GTO!
I preferred small block Vettes for their handling. The big block was more of a cruiser. Or if prepared a street drag car. The heavy engine made the car understeer dramatically. The big torque and bias tires enabled power slides and that was the only way to get around a corner fast. If you werent prepared to gas it in a turn you would just go straight. It was easy and fun but scary for the uninitiated.
Also Vettes of that time were headaches. Electrical issues... vacuum operated headlight buckets.. wiper doors... Always failing.
A friend was racing his 70 at Englishtown on Wednesday nights and exploded the half shafts.
But the big block hit all the right nerves on a hot summer night with the top down just cruising around. Or a ride down to The Jersey Shore at 3am...
The SS vert is as fun and way more sophisticated. Can out perform the Vette hands down. And at this point the Vette would be too valuable to actually have fun with.
If I was to look for a modern alternative Id be shopping a 2015 Z/28. Or one of the few modern Vettes with that engine.
427 is a storied cube. Power everywhere is good.
The glamor of the vintage cars would wear off and you might wish for your SS back. Our Camaro hits all the right emotions for me after owning a lot of fast cars from the 60s and early 70s. Its way better in so many ways.

[MR's 2SS]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

Your SS makes roughly the same peak torque at the same RPM with lower displacement, delivers it quicker, more efficiently, and through a significantly better transmission. The gap isn't just tires.

Tires, brakes, suspension, shocks....steering... you name it. With modern tires the anemic brakes would be glaring out. Cornering would overload the suspension since you wouldnt be sliding sideways and those half shafts would explode that much easier since the tires would hook up.
Plus. 2 convertibles and one T top... 65, 69 and a 70... all leaked in the rain. The 65 nothing worked but the engine and driveline. Usually the headlights ... ( maybe just one) sometimes the blinkers.. no heat no radio. No A/C. no power steering. But the most fun to drive car I ever had. Loud... obnoxious... rattles everywhere... gears whining... wheels spinning whether you wanted or not....
Where the 69 427 attracted women.... the 65 scared them away!
The SS has greater potential for performance while being completely civil on a daily basis. That might take something away on one level. But it makes for a really useful piece of transportation... Thats still a ton of fun if you let it loose.

[Camaro fanboy]

Originally Posted by jamala00

People are taking 7-8 year loans out on autos these days. It ain't just people not being able to afford a V8 SS Camaro.

would never ever ever loan a penny for any luxery item. only money i would ever loan for is say a roof on my house. or heating.
anything that i do not need has to be bought in cash.
it's called save up. something folk today have little concept of

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

Tires, brakes, suspension, shocks....steering... you name it. With modern tires the anemic brakes would be glaring out. Cornering would overload the suspension since you wouldnt be sliding sideways and those half shafts would explode that much easier since the tires would hook up.
Plus. 2 convertibles and one T top... 65, 69 and a 70... all leaked in the rain. The 65 nothing worked but the engine and driveline. Usually the headlights ... ( maybe just one) sometimes the blinkers.. no heat no radio. No A/C. no power steering. But the most fun to drive car I ever had. Loud... obnoxious... rattles everywhere... gears whining... wheels spinning whether you wanted or not....
Where the 69 427 attracted women.... the 65 scared them away!
The SS has greater potential for performance while being completely civil on a daily basis. That might take something away on one level. But it makes for a really useful piece of transportation... Thats still a ton of fun if you let it loose.

Yep, my point exactly. I look back at the era for the aesthetics nowadays. Changing entire designs year to year and such made for so much variety and some wild looking rides. The performance metrics have long since been left in the dust, and yeah nothing like having the comfort, convenience, performance, and efficiency all nicely balanced. I drove 1900+ trouble free miles this weekend. Average speed of 73, several stints well into triple digits, seat fans & A/C on with my iPhone in the console with WAZE loaded up and Pandora playing Aerosmith. Averaged 27.5 mpg. Not to mention, I would loathe having to try and replace something like a COPO or a 69 427 Stingray should some dolt on their smart phone broadside me. As much as I'd hate losing my SS, I know I can go grab another with little-to-no effort.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

Yep, my point exactly. I look back at the era for the aesthetics nowadays. Changing entire designs year to year and such made for so much variety and some wild looking rides. The performance metrics have long since been left in the dust, and yeah nothing like having the comfort, convenience, performance, and efficiency all nicely balanced. I drove 1900+ trouble free miles this weekend. Average speed of 73, several stints well into triple digits, seat fans & A/C on with my iPhone in the console with WAZE loaded up and Pandora playing Aerosmith. Averaged 27.5 mpg. Not to mention, I would loathe having to try and replace something like a COPO or a 69 427 Stingray should some dolt on their smart phone broadside me. As much as I'd hate losing my SS, I know I can go grab another with little-to-no effort.

The butt dyno feels faster in those old cars though. Loud, rattles, and the butt dyno is what makes those fun!! I'd take a 427 stingray or copo over any lt1 or ss!

Plus those old muscle cars turn heads.

[redcoats1976]

yeah thats true.people would always compliment me on the old pontiac but i think that my 2015 RS yes,6 cylinder would give it a hell of a race on a staightaway and destroy it cornering,braking,fuel mileage and comfort wise.but the old iron can be fixed at home in the driveway with basic tools cheaply.

[MR's 2SS]

I always worked on my own vehicles. Up to the point where a real mechanic was justified. Often going in way over my head as long as I had one of my friends who were capable looking over my shoulder.
Now looking under the hood of a lot of cars all you see is plastic covers.
Right now Gateway Classics has a 69 427 coup asking $85,000. Its the same specs and color as my vert but with T tops. Nice car supposedly numbers matching.
I sold mine for $6,700.00....in 1977.
You could buy a lot with 85 thousand dollars.

[CamaroSSStlfan]

Originally Posted by MR's 2SS

I always worked on my own vehicles. Up to the point where a real mechanic was justified. Often going in way over my head as long as I had one of my friends who were capable looking over my shoulder.
Now looking under the hood of a lot of cars all you see is plastic covers.
Right now Gateway Classics has a 69 427 coup asking $85,000. Its the same specs and color as my vert but with T tops. Nice car supposedly numbers matching.
I sold mine for $6,700.00....in 1977.
You could buy a lot with 85 thousand dollars.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0513-15...-corvette-zr1/


Me likey the Zr1.


Also, gotta factor in driving these things. I'd be petrified driving something like a COPO, Stingray, etc. on the road and someone hitting my car and messing it up or worse.


I'd take a 69 427 over a modern C8. I just like the raw power of the cars. might be less refined but that's the fun part about it.


I know these new cars might be faster, BUT how much of it is thanks to traction controls and launch controls? If the technology was available back then to cut down on wheel spin would times be better due to better hooking?



My dad had a 69 GTO and it had tons of wheel spin.

[redcoats1976]

back then the traction control resided in the foot of a skilled driver.you could not just slam it to the floor unless you wanted to sit and spin...spinnin aint winnin.

[Modernmusclecar]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Because the 5th gen Camaro was novel. And the Mustang has narrowed the gap, performance-wise (engine power, IRS, etc.). The 6th gen Camaro looks like a refreshed 5th gen, whereas the 6th gen S550 Mustang looks quite different than the S197. Then add in the worse visibility and slightly lower practicality, and less safety tech. options, less iconic name, polarizing styling, and it adds up.

Most of the people bashing don't own a Camaro or a Mustang. So I'd wager they are simply going off of what they've read on C&D or MT, etc.

Novel? Hardly. Sure it was hyped by the movie but if your Camaro wasnt yellow then it didnt relate.It was a huge success well after the movie hype because people loved the look of the car. Sure its porky but that retro look and true muscle car lines were a home run...till this day people still comnent on the car. Its the last true muscle car GM will build. Yaya the 6th gen is quicker and all that as it should be. The 5th gen has a road presence all its own. Unless your driving a 6th gen zl1 or 1le .....i dont really look twice. They way its looking the 6th gen may be tbe last Camaro ever built...and thats a shame.My buddies have a 2021 1le 10 speed and a 2021 Lt1 10 speed...its sad if those car are the end of the line for the Camaro.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You hit the nail on the head. You have to get used to it. But you are admitting that it is worse if it's something that requires a customer to get used to it.

Customers shouldn't be forced to make tradeoffs or "get used to" key attributes like the Camaro forces. GM assumed the customer base would when they only talked to the "Camaro faithful" instead of a full blown clinic. Sales would indicate they were wrong in this assumption.

For me? Visibility is poor. If you understand the tools and methodologies on how a car is packaged (I do and wrote several papers on them) it's just plane bad. High belt and slammed roof designs (Ed Welburn) do nothing to help.

Also, could I have adapted to the trunk limitations for 2 sets of golf clubs? Sure I too could have "got used to" leaving the back seat down all the time to create the trunk space that the other competitors in this segment have. Or driven around with the bags in the trunk but the drivers in the back seat. LOL you could easily get 2 sets in an ATS coupe, which was built off of the same architecture. Many have mocked me but it's the single reason I didn't get a Camaro. And when you talk sales volumes, you can't give people reasons to NOT buy your product. And getting used to it doesn't play for sales volume.

I'll say for the 1,000th time, it's the best Camaro ever, it's just a crappy coupe.

Always keep in mind, this is the internet. Just because it's not a problem for you, doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else. I see it every day.

This ^ With how good GM performance engineers are, and the fact teh ATS coupe doesn't have the "problems" the Camaro does you can't tell me they could have made some adjustments and still had the same level of performance.

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

I don't think it should be stated as getting used to it... It's more of you should expect it. I've owned sports cars for 40 years and all have had some type of blind spot or limitations on storage... I personally don't want an oversized heavy Muscle/sports car just so someone can put their kids in it or their dang golf clubs...

Go drive a new C8 Corvette, it's worse than our GEN6 Camaros.

That's the problem though. It needs to have a bit more of a broader appeal so that it makes a case to stick around. There is data on this site that for the most part in this segment 60-70% of buyers buy the base engine cars. Those buyers are not going to care about performance. Those buyers aren't going to over look the issues the car has that most of the forum does because we are enthusiasts. for the the 6th gen, GM focused on what the 30-40% wanted instead of what the bulk of buyers might prefer.

If you want the camaro to stick around it needs to have a slightly broader appeal.

Look at the Wrangler, many many people don't consider the Wrangler unlimited(4 Door) a real wrangler because it has to many doors. Forums like to mock the Sahara and luxury trims and stuff saying it doesn't belong in a jeep. Yet I believe I read almost 75% of all Wrangler sales are now the 4 door model. The 4 door allows the 2 door to still exist. the luxury street trims allow the hardcore Rubicon trims to exist. Do those things take away from the Jeep's capability? Nope, it allows the wrangler to appeal to more people and still keep the enthusiast pleased with a hardcore off road vehicle.

Camaro is superior chassis, superior handling, overall better performer, better equipped yet its sales have tanked the hardest. If you still think the issues people bring up aren't issues I don't know what else to tell you. People like to make fun of Number 3 for his golf club example but its a great example. The camaro compared to its direct competition is a bad coupe.

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

i wonder how golf clubs fit in the mustang? no idea. they're the exact same length.
we're at the point there's hardly even mid size cars left, let alone large ones. almost everything is an SUV or a CUV or a truck.

I was able to fit two sets in my 07 Mustang.

Originally Posted by MichaelG

I was just referring to following comment: “It's not that the cheaper Camaros suck, but the other cars in that same class are generally better cars, more ergonomic and performance is either a wash or better in the speed ranges to be likely encountered.“

I see that the term “bashing” was too harsh. But was going along with the theme title of the thread. I was just surprised to see comments that the “cheaper“ Camaro is generally not as good as other cars in it’s class. This is a Camaro forum right?

It's not so much bashing, but the Challenger and Mustang are better at being cars than the Camaro is. Better visibility, better interior room, better trunk openings and more trunk space. Those are facts. In the lower trims, most buyers would put more preference on will this car work for me and my lifestyle. In the higher trims where more people are enthusiasts they can look over those things more often because they want the performance.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by shaffe

It's not so much bashing, but the Challenger and Mustang are better at being cars than the Camaro is. Better visibility, better interior room, better trunk openings and more trunk space. Those are facts. In the lower trims, most buyers would put more preference on will this car work for me and my lifestyle. In the higher trims where more people are enthusiasts they can look over those things more often because they want the performance.

These are undeniable, but it's quite okay with me. Mustangs and Challengers are a dime a dozen here, and who wouldn't want to have a more special car than Karen from the complex .

Also, even if the Camaro outsold these two consistently, do you honestly think GM would care and make meaningful improvements, maybe even a 7th gen?