[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I think we talked about the sway bars in the past and I gave the below link but I might be wrong.

Let me repeat, for track/race use stiffer sway bars are never a bad thing if you go very stiff, the street ride may be harsh for someone when one wheel goes over a bump but only slightly..etc but still not as much as the stiffer springs or a coilover. The reason why ZLE feels a bit firmer for street use even with the softer sways than our cars. Also that firmness is always there regardless of if one wheel or two wheels go over the same bump.

Since we are adding considerably wider and more aggressive tires (and of course grip to the car), it would be ideal to get the last bit of grip for roll (in my case I will be adding 30% rate to both front and rear and am not worried about it all and that's nothing compared to my Miata when I increased the both front and rear roll bar rate by 3-5 times and with Ohlins with 11k/5k swift springs along with full under body braces and strut tower braces.. performance only got better each time I made it stiffer ) .

That being said, some drivers can easily adopt the softer setups and use the lean on the shoulder of the tires (due to softness) to their advantage too. It's a different driving style and requires some experience too which I lack I personally like the stiff/flatter car and at the track because it gives me more confidence when weight transfer is quicker and car's suspension is more direct/responsive to steering inputs.. I never felt like the sway bars caused too much stiffness that may upset the car or resulted in poor performance. I didn't use street tires as much either though.



Take a look at this article, it's a good read and explains the common misconceptions about the roll bars in more detail :
https://www.suspensionsetup.info/blo...or-a-bad-thing

Cem, we are not really discussing this subject in abstract terms, or what us seasoned track rats like vs dislike, having established our driving styles, having experience with various cars and various tracks and having experimented with different set ups.

Instead, we are trying to provide info relative to a novice with some 5 track days behind his belt and a very fast car with 650hp and tq who wants to gain pace with stickier tires asap yet hasnt had a chance to develop proper car control skills yet, nor drive without Stabilitrack. Keep this firmly in mind when you advocate quicker weight transfers and faster responses to controls as this requires another level of skill altogether and can put him on a rather dangerous path.
Imho. Cheers!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Cem, we are not really discussing this subject in abstract terms, or what us seasoned track rats like vs dislike, having established our driving styles, having experience with various cars and various tracks and having experimented with different set ups.

Instead, we are trying to provide info relative to a novice with some 5 track days behind his belt and a very fast car with 650hp and tq who wants to gain pace with stickier tires asap yet hasnt had a chance to develop proper car control skills yet, nor drive without Stabilitrack. Keep this firmly in mind when you advocate quicker weight transfers and faster responses to controls as this requires another level of skill altogether and can put him on a rather dangerous path.
Imho. Cheers!

Oh I was speaking on behalf of myself and my friends and trying to stay on topic (R7 vs SC3R..both very sticky R comp tires). I'm not giving advices to anyone, I am merely saying what kind of setup would yield in better lap times objectively.

I cannot speak of someone else's experience and decide whether or not what tires are good for them.. that's a decision they should make and consider the risks associated using them I agree with you, learning a car with a very sticky tires may not be a good way since they won't communicate like OEM tires (or tires in that category).

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

All I saw TC post was that springs would not be the first place he'd turn to for reducing roll. Wouldn't be mine, either.

Of course firmer springs will reduce roll. But they aren't nearly as effective at reducing roll as sta-bars can be.

There's probably an optimum range of spring vs bar here, which is kind of a fuzzy concept to begin with. There are several schools of thought, ranging from Big Bar Soft Springs to Stiff Springs Soft Bars.

There are some engineering/mathematical approaches you can take, if you like that sort of thing. They won't give you final answers (you still have to drive it to either prove you were on the right track or find out that you weren't), but it's a bit better than guessing and throwing money, parts, and a lot of hope at the car.


Norm

No his exact words were "your second paragraph makes zero sense" then he said that springs would not be the first place he'd turn to for reducing roll.
However if you read my post, I never said it was the best or only or first choice in reducing body roll, just that it does play a factor and that factor was only one of the reasons I chose the springs, not the only reason.
If springs did absolutely nothing for body roll then part of my paragraph would make zero sense, the part about body roll, not the entire paragraph, which was about more than just body roll

While I appreciate TC's knowledge and desire to help, he often makes very extreme all or nothing statements that cannot be backed up and he would do much better to avoid those extreme statements and leave room for conversation. There's some free advice on communication since he's very intent on changing my mind and approach to tracking

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

... to a novice with some 5 track days behind his belt...

Don't forget the 3 full training days with an instructor, which makes me more than just a novice, but a novice with 3 days of training! Not to mention a graduate of Performance Level 3 driving with a piece of paper that basically says I'm a race car driver now

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Keep this firmly in mind when you advocate quicker weight transfers and faster responses to controls as this requires another level of skill altogether and can put him on a rather dangerous path.

As Iceman said "I am dangerous"

[TrackClub]

GMG, my *very last* piece of direct advice to ya: continue using stability control, as you may need it now more than ever before. Cheers!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Don't forget the 3 full training days with an instructor, which makes me more than just a novice, but a novice with 3 days of training! Not to mention a graduate of Performance Level 3 driving with a piece of paper that basically says I'm a race car driver now



As Iceman said "I am dangerous"

I've edited my reply, since i cant be sure whether you're joking, or being serious here.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

No his exact words were "your second paragraph makes zero sense" then he said that springs would not be the first place he'd turn to for reducing roll.

And I clearly specified what I was responding to - repeated below - the part where you questioned his opinion that springs would have no impact on "body roll". Nothing else.

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey
However I’m not sure why you’d say that springs have no impact on body roll

Maybe that's what you read into TC's post, but it's not what he typed.

However if you read my post, I never said it was the best or only or first choice in reducing body roll, just that it does play a factor and that factor was only one of the reasons I chose the springs, not the only reason.
If springs did absolutely nothing for body roll then part of my paragraph would make zero sense, the part about body roll, not the entire paragraph, which was about more than just body roll

Of course springs play a part in reducing roll. But if reducing roll is your primary goal, doing so with springs alone is not the way to go about it.

Taking advertising/marketing descriptions at face value is probably the worst way to attempt an understanding of vehicle dynamics in enough depth to form sound conclusions or disagree with those who have greater experience (whether that be purely practical, strictly engineering in nature, or some of each).

While I appreciate TC's knowledge and desire to help, he often makes very extreme all or nothing statements that cannot be backed up and he would do much better to avoid those extreme statements and leave room for conversation. There's some free advice on communication since he's very intent on changing my mind and approach to tracking

Running at speed on the track is serious business - make that potentially deadly-serious business - that involves more people than just you. Best to read and heed the advice and not worry so much about the way it was presented. Sometimes the best advice comes in the least attractive packages (with a little luck, you remember it better because it's not pretty). Yeah, sometimes it can be a bit tough to swallow.


Norm

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

No his exact words were "your second paragraph makes zero sense" then he said that springs would not be the first place he'd turn to for reducing roll.
However if you read my post, I never said it was the best or only or first choice in reducing body roll, just that it does play a factor and that factor was only one of the reasons I chose the springs, not the only reason.
If springs did absolutely nothing for body roll then part of my paragraph would make zero sense, the part about body roll, not the entire paragraph, which was about more than just body roll

While I appreciate TC's knowledge and desire to help, he often makes very extreme all or nothing statements that cannot be backed up and he would do much better to avoid those extreme statements and leave room for conversation. There's some free advice on communication since he's very intent on changing my mind and approach to tracking

I am not backing up my statements?! Wow...

Maybe you "would do much better" by finally taking at least some advice good folks try to share with you. Apart from myself (with a full explanation as to why, plus a vid from an Indycar technical guru so you could benefit from suspension 101), then Norm and finally Cem have all stated that springs are not a first component to mess with, nor one to mess with in isolation. Not to mention (again) those yyz springs were not designed " for our cars" - as you said - but for SS only, which has a different damper and elsd calibrations apart from other differences which affect handling. Not to mention (again), they were not designed with track as a primary objective. But surely, you ought to be aware of all of it by now?!

Instead of thanking me (and the others) for sharing important info with you, you decide to marginalize my "zero sense" statement, as well as all my posts in general, while preaching "free advice on communication". Let me stand corrected: apart from the 1st paragraph (which asks a very good question) all the rest makes zero sense. Including your subsequent attempts to defend your decision to install springs, never mind they were never designed for your car. Cheers!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Don't forget the 3 full training days with an instructor, which makes me more than just a novice, but a novice with 3 days of training! Not to mention a graduate of Performance Level 3 driving with a piece of paper that basically says I'm a race car driver now

As Iceman said "I am dangerous"

Please do not over-estimate yourself here, not even in joking.

If anything, you should be going out of your way to consciously under-estimate your progress, because while you've satisfied at least one instructor that you're reasonably safe out there, you still don't have your own wide base of experience to fall back on. That's going to take time.


Just so you know, two different track day entities have moved me up into an Advanced run group after only 5 track days running with them, the first of those coming on my 10th track day ever.

I still consider myself to be a mid-level Intermediate.


Norm

[Msquared]

Guys, springs and sway bars have exactly the same effect on roll. If you start with 200lb/in of wheel rate in roll, and you want to reduce roll by half for a given amount of lateral acceleration ("g force"), you can either double the wheel rate with stiffer springs or stiffer sway bars and get the desired outcome. It doesn't matter one bit. The difference will be that if you increase spring rates to do this then you also increase wheel rate in pitch/heave, whereas with sway bars you only increased wheel rate in roll/articulation. There are pluses and minuses to both. The biggest challenge with using high sway bar rates to reduce roll is that you have a very different wheel rate in roll than pitch/heave, and that means you have very different rebound damping rate requirements but only one set of dampers.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

And I clearly specified what I was responding to - repeated below - the part where you questioned his opinion that springs would have no impact on "body roll". Nothing else.

Maybe that's what you read into TC's post, but it's not what he typed.

And I quote

Originally Posted by TrackClub

No disrespect, but your second paragraph makes zero sense

He then said

Originally Posted by TrackClub

as stiffer springs are neither required for running softer rubber, nor should they be used as a first choice for eliminating body roll.

I did not "read" into anything, he literally said my paragraph makes ZERO sense and yet my paragraph never said anything about springs being the first or only choice in reducing bodyroll or required for softer rubber. When I said they were the "best" it was in reference to the "best" springs, not being better than shocks or sway bars or anything else. You and him are both "reading" into my words. Here is my paragraph so you can re read it again.

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Wondering if there is a reason to go with stiffer sway bars rather than stiffer springs or vice versa? Or both?

I now have YYZ springs in my ZL1 because I’m going to be using SC3R tires this season (as well as 19” wheels) and aside from giving the car a slightly lower stance I thought these springs would be the best at handling the extra grip of the tires and reducing any increased body roll.
They seem to be the most performance orientated springs, as that is what the makers (Powell Racing) intended them for, with progressive spring rates that start out the same as the stock levels but then progressively get much stiffer.

I understand why this mis-communication has happened as I did not make it clear, but now you know what you both "read" into.

Furthermore, considering that I started the post with a question, it makes "zero sense" to come out swinging with a response that says "your 2nd paragraph makes zero sense". Again, a better communicator who actually wants his advice listened to would be wiser than that. He might even apologize if his true primary goal was to have his advice listened to instead of just wanting to give advice. I guess we will find out if his ego/pride is really in control.

Lastly no one seems to be talking about the increased nose dive that the extra grip these tires have may cause when braking (I'm assuming the car can stop faster with these tires and brake pad combo) and sway bars won't help that.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Please do not over-estimate yourself here, not even in joking.

Calm down Gandalf, this isn't LOTR, we are not on a quest, no one said the name "Mordor" and the Nazgul aren't moderating this thread (if you don't understand, go watch the first movie in the trilogy and you'll get it).

You need to lighten up, joke and smile more my friend, you are being waaaaaay tooooo serious! Try quoting a movie, it's fun

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I am not backing up my statements?! Wow...

Maybe you "would do much better" by finally taking at least some advice good folks try to share with you. Apart from myself (with a full explanation as to why, plus a vid from an Indycar technical guru so you could benefit from suspension 101), then Norm and finally Cem have all stated that springs are not a first component to mess with, nor one to mess with in isolation. Not to mention (again) those yyz springs were not designed " for our cars" - as you said - but for SS only, which has a different damper and elsd calibrations apart from other differences which affect handling. Not to mention (again), they were not designed with track as a primary objective. But surely, you ought to be aware of all of it by now?!

Instead of thanking me (and the others) for sharing important info with you, you decide to marginalize my "zero sense" statement, as well as all my posts in general, while preaching "free advice on communication". Let me stand corrected: apart from the 1st paragraph (which asks a very good question) all the rest makes zero sense. Including your subsequent attempts to defend your decision to install springs, never mind they were never designed for your car. Cheers!

Now this is funny! Seriously, everything you said was gold TC, keep it up!

I'm not sure how much more obvious I can make this, reread what I posted in response to Norm; When I said "best" it was in reference to the "best" springs, not shocks or sway bars or anything else. Now you know what you "read" into. If you were't so advice happy you might have paused and asked what I meant. Instead you jumped to conclusions.

There you go again TC; springs not designed for my car? They were tested on an SS 1LE which as you know shares the same FE4 suspension as the ZL1 with minor changes in spring rate. And yes designed/made for the SS, SS1LE and ZL1 by HyperCo / Powell Racing.

Here's more advice, don't be a hypocrite, I'm giving you free communication advice, if you like to give it, maybe you should take it too and thank me or do you just like to tell other people they need to thank you for every piece of advice you give?

Lastly, I've actually thanked you many times for your advice, but as soon as we disagree, you forget all that. Work on your pride my friend, it's getting you into trouble.

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by Msquared

Guys, springs and sway bars have exactly the same effect on roll. If you start with 200lb/in of wheel rate in roll, and you want to reduce roll by half for a given amount of lateral acceleration ("g force"), you can either double the wheel rate with stiffer springs or stiffer sway bars and get the desired outcome. It doesn't matter one bit. The difference will be that if you increase spring rates to do this then you also increase wheel rate in pitch/heave, whereas with sway bars you only increased wheel rate in roll/articulation. There are pluses and minuses to both. The biggest challenge with using high sway bar rates to reduce roll is that you have a very different wheel rate in roll than pitch/heave, and that means you have very different rebound damping rate requirements but only one set of dampers.

Thanks for that input, I appreciate the info

I'm interested to see what TC and Norm think about that, hopefully they won't mis-read or "read" into what you wrote, but I'm sure many counter points will be soon to follow