[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Not all comparisons are made with the intent to purchase either car, so I am not sure what you mean by your claim I am lying in my post above. Can you explain further?

I was not actually referencing your post, it was instead a general comment on the argument that some have been making about the pricing of these cars. Basically, when someone knows that the real difference in cost to purchase one of these 2 cars is not simply the difference in msrp, but they insist that only the msrp can be compared ('only' being an important part of the statement here, as well as 'knows'), then they are not being honest. I realize that the propoganda industry (media) will continue to focus on msrp alone, but real people should pay attention to real-world as far as I'm concerned.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by oldman

Hennesy (not indorsing them) says 808 with supercharger, fuel and CAI for the 5.0, 750 for a lt1, a forged LT1 stroker is 1000 hp. No package upgrades the axles, I know crazy right sell a 1000 HP car with stock axles... Wonder why more people are not dead.
The gt500 is 1000 HP with pulley and tune, 1200 with twin turbo.

It is irresponsible on the part of the company. But I do think people should be able to mod the suspension how they want. Some might want track, some might want strip, some might want little of both. So maybe the solution is to just offer a selection. I would trust Lebanon over Henny any day tho.

[BlaqWhole]

About the MSRP debate, one thing I think is dishonest is when the magazines get a cheaper car that is optioned up and then compare it performance-wise to the GT500 without any addons. It is misleading. They did that with the C8 and that was unfair. A $60K vehicle optioned up to make it look like it is comparable when really the performance difference is $94K vs $60K/$65K. $34K/$29K Is a huge gap to overcome and the C8 managed to do pretty well considering.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

About the MSRP debate, one thing I think is dishonest is when the magazines get a cheaper car that is optioned up and then compare it performance-wise to the GT500 without any addons. It is misleading. They did that with the C8 and that was unfair. A $60K vehicle optioned up to make it look like it is comparable when really the performance difference is $94K vs $60K/$65K. $34K/$29K Is a huge gap to overcome and the C8 managed to do pretty well considering.

Keep in mind that they had to play the hand that was dealt to them. GM gave them that car, all optioned up as it was, so that's what they had to compare. GM gave them the car at that level of trim because they also want the magazines to comment on all the new tech they can cram into the car. I think Motor Trend did a really good job of pointing out that the same level of performance could be achieved at $67k by simply not adding all the non-performance related content.


It is increasingly common with the launch of an all-new vehicle that the first models coming off the line are highly contented. People are more willing to pay full, non-discounted price for early models, so the OEMs know they're gonna get full price and higher profit margins for the highly contented models while interest and demand is at its peak.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

Hennesy (not indorsing them) says 808 with supercharger, fuel and CAI for the 5.0, 750 for a lt1, a forged LT1 stroker is 1000 hp. No package upgrades the axles, I know crazy right sell a 1000 HP car with stock axles... Wonder why more people are not dead.
The gt500 is 1000 HP with pulley and tune, 1200 with twin turbo.

Not endorsing Lebanon Ford, but they have several packages to address any concerns the buyer may have like:

"PROTECTION PACKAGE:

• MMR Billet Oil Pump Gears and 2000HP DSS halfshafts: Eliminate the two weakest links of the Mustang GT in one shot. Trust us, you need them.
$3999 INSTALLED"

They also have a drag pack, a suspension package, clutch kits, etc...

You just option up what you want...

AND, they usually have a waranty, but in the 1000HP case, they said the car is sold "as is", no warranty...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Keep in mind that they had to play the hand that was dealt to them. GM gave them that car, all optioned up as it was, so that's what they had to compare. GM gave them the car at that level of trim because they also want the magazines to comment on all the new tech they can cram into the car. I think Motor Trend did a really good job of pointing out that the same level of performance could be achieved at $67k by simply not adding all the non-performance related content.


It is increasingly common with the launch of an all-new vehicle that the first models coming off the line are highly contented. People are more willing to pay full, non-discounted price for early models, so the OEMs know they're gonna get full price and higher profit margins for the highly contented models while interest and demand is at its peak.

This ^ I am pretty sure the C8 that was used in the GT500 "test" was the same C8 MT had on hand for Car of the year contest. Sometimes they can only roll with what they were given

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by wnta1ss

I was not actually referencing your post, it was instead a general comment on the argument that some have been making about the pricing of these cars. Basically, when someone knows that the real difference in cost to purchase one of these 2 cars is not simply the difference in msrp, but they insist that only the msrp can be compared ('only' being an important part of the statement here, as well as 'knows'), then they are not being honest. I realize that the propoganda industry (media) will continue to focus on msrp alone, but real people should pay attention to real-world as far as I'm concerned.

Spot on man, I completely agree!!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Keep in mind that they had to play the hand that was dealt to them. GM gave them that car, all optioned up as it was, so that's what they had to compare. GM gave them the car at that level of trim because they also want the magazines to comment on all the new tech they can cram into the car. I think Motor Trend did a really good job of pointing out that the same level of performance could be achieved at $67k by simply not adding all the non-performance related content.


It is increasingly common with the launch of an all-new vehicle that the first models coming off the line are highly contented. People are more willing to pay full, non-discounted price for early models, so the OEMs know they're gonna get full price and higher profit margins for the highly contented models while interest and demand is at its peak.

I understand that. But the magazines are making it look like the C8's performance level is at what the MSRP was when it was basically a $65K car with over $10K of comfort and aesthetics added on. If they added similar stuff on the GT500 then it would probably have tipped into the $100K range without any extra performance. But that difference would have been similar to a ZR1 vs GT500 shootout...which we will never see...because the Mustang wouldn't stand a chance against a car made by GM that has similar specs.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Not endorsing Lebanon Ford, but they have several packages to address any concerns the buyer may have like:

"PROTECTION PACKAGE:

• MMR Billet Oil Pump Gears and 2000HP DSS halfshafts: Eliminate the two weakest links of the Mustang GT in one shot. Trust us, you need them.
$3999 INSTALLED"

They also have a drag pack, a suspension package, clutch kits, etc...

You just option up what you want...

AND, they usually have a waranty, but in the 1000HP case, they said the car is sold "as is", no warranty...

Adding in the protection package, suspension package, 10-rib package, and exhaust package with nothing else the price comes out to $55K. That is well under what a GT500 would cost. And then you could even step it up to the Premium to get the creature comforts. And then add on some other mods to help optimize it. I bet you'd come in at around $70K for a very well built, reliable, DD-capable, 1000 HP GT. I bet it would beat the GT500 in the quarter mile and roll-ons. The GT500 would win around a track. But still, for $70K-ish you can't beat that. The GT500 has all the hype. And a modded GT would never be a Shelby. But if all you care about is having all the performance of the GT500 in a modern car and all the options then this is the way to go for sure. I would go this route over a GT500 any day.

It does not come with a warranty but with proper maintenance and for those who are tuners and wrenchers this would not be an issue. Plus like I said before, if the engine does blow it's not like these 5.0s are super expensive. You could just buy a used one, swap it in, dial the boost back, and you'll be fine. And still the total costs would be lower than a Base GT500.

[oldman]

Don't know how dependable 1000 HP on a GT's engine will be with just an oil pump upgrade, but say 700 HP and an auto, shafts and DR should be more than enough to completely destroy the GT500 and just anything else OEM, don't know about a Demon with track prep.
I did see the PP2 vs the GT350 article and that was relatively interesting. Does the 2020 Mustang come with a more "tuned" steering? It does seem to be the most valid complaint so far. Maybe the platform is not that bad, maybe Ford is laying down on the engineering job. Steering feel should be easy to fix right?
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-shelby-gt350/

[smokinzx14r]

Originally Posted by oldman

Don't know how dependable 1000 HP on a GT's engine will be with just an oil pump upgrade, but say 700 HP and an auto, shafts and DR should be more than enough to completely destroy the GT500 and just anything else OEM, don't know about a Demon with track prep.
I did see the PP2 vs the GT350 article and that was relatively interesting. Does the 2020 Mustang come with a more "tuned" steering? It does seem to be the most valid complaint so far. Maybe the platform is not that bad, maybe Ford is laying down on the engineering job. Steering feel should be easy to fix right?
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-shelby-gt350/

2015 GT with just a Procharger P1 , drag pack with stock axles and drive shaft , no oil pump gears ran 9.80s to 9.90s ..I ran the snot out of that car for 3 years with no problems ..Pretty sure that takes care of any stock GT500 , Red Eye or ZL1
And for a hole lot less money ...

[oldman]

thought so, still I would do shafts and pump..

[RageWorx]

Originally Posted by smokinzx14r

2015 GT with just a Procharger P1 , drag pack with stock axles and drive shaft , no oil pump gears ran 9.80s to 9.90s ..I ran the snot out of that car for 3 years with no problems ..Pretty sure that takes care of any stock GT500 , Red Eye or ZL1
And for a hole lot less money ...

We also have one or two members on this forum with Stock LT1s, P1X blower, LT4 fuel + W/M inj, not much else in the 700-750 rwhp range running mid 9s at ~145+ mph ... Pretty darn impressive for a little P1X on a Not to far from Stock A8 SS lol Pretty sure even a ZL1 would need some decent mods to put those times down.

And this right here is why I bought my 1SS in 2016 (ECS Supercharged now) and wasn't truly super interested in trading up to a ZL1 or otherwise when they came out the next year. I bought my Gen 6 Camaro as a part time track toy and configured it as such.

If I only had one car or I was going to drive it more often having all those nice features and overall complete do everything packages like the ZL1 or new GT500 would be justifiable in my mind ... But for how often I drive mine and what I mainly use it for (Drag and Strait line) I'm perfectly fine with building up my reg A8 SS and the money saved for other projects.

I remember running 11.7s and 11.8s (around 117-118 mph) my 16 A8 SS Stock with just a MT DR and watching the 2017 A10 ZL1s hit 12s all night (I know they are faster than that LOL!) but in the real world no one gave a crap that I didn't have a ZL1 because on that day/track I was faster/lighter (for way less) so who cares LOL. OK the SS will be out handled by the ZL1 in a road racing setting which again no one at this track cared about ... but lets not pretend that the SS is a slouch in this regard and the difference isn't light years away especially with some cheaper suspension/brake/tire upgrades to the lighter SS.

In fact all the fastest times (1/4 mile) on the 6th Gen Camaro platform are from the A8 SS and not the A10 ZL1 (not yet anyway) ... I haven't checked but I'm sure you can say the same with the S550 platform (the A10 GTs own the fastest strait line times on the S550 platform and not the higher trim GT500s or 350s).

Even for AutoX my A8 SS is much cheaper to run for the day (tires and brake parts cheaper) and the SS is noticeably lighter (even with my ECS Supercharger system my car weighed 3580 lbs without me in it much lighter than a ZL1).

However if serious road racing is to be done a ZL1 or 1LE equipped car is the obvious way to go No Doubt!

In the end if the day it all depends on what your intended use for the car is as to which is the better value/buy situation.

But I agree ... now more than ever the current SS and GT offerings are the best stock platforms they have ever been in regards to being able to Boost and Go Have Fun being a strong solid starting foundation from the factory to punch way above their Price when it comes to upgrade-ability and potential.

If you want to mod/build (possibly save money not always) starting with an SS or GT is a great way to go with today's offerings .... But for those who only want to do some light mods but would rather just drive the car and have it be awesome already from the factory no upgrades really needed (or keep factory Warranty!!!) ... The ZL1 and GT500 are the Bag



Anyway with the money saved LOL I'm planning on grabbing another project ..... Putting an order in on a A90/A91 MKV Supra to build up for AutoX/Road Racing (I prefer smaller lighter track cars with shorter wheel base ... I know these new ZL1, GT500s are awesome on track but are Still very BIG and Long Sports Coupes even my SS).

Then The Gen 6 SS can be the dedicated Drag/Strait line weapon (was trying to stay somewhat balanced with the SS for handling and strait line but when the Supra arrives ... its Heads, Cam (pistons), and Converter time for the SS !)

-Jon

[RageWorx]

Originally Posted by oldman

thought so, still I would do shafts and pump..

Definitely at least Oil Pump gears that is the first mod I would do to any Gen Coyote boosted or not .... Hell I think some have even reported the new GT500s will eventually need Billet upgraded OPG also LOL .

-Jon

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by RageWorx

We also have one or two members on this forum with Stock LT1s, P1X blower, LT4 fuel + W/M inj, not much else in the 700-750 rwhp range running mid 9s at ~145+ mph ... Pretty darn impressive for a little P1X on a Not to far from Stock A8 SS lol Pretty sure even a ZL1 would need some decent mods to put those times down.

And this right here is why I bought my 1SS in 2016 (ECS Supercharged now) and wasn't truly super interested in trading up to a ZL1 or otherwise when they came out the next year. I bought my Gen 6 Camaro as a part time track toy and configured it as such.

If I only had one car or I was going to drive it more often having all those nice features and overall complete do everything packages like the ZL1 or new GT500 would be justifiable in my mind ... But for how often I drive mine and what I mainly use it for (Drag and Strait line) I'm perfectly fine with building up my reg A8 SS and the money saved for other projects.

I remember running 11.7s and 11.8s (around 117-118 mph) my 16 A8 SS Stock with just a MT DR and watching the 2017 A10 ZL1s hit 12s all night (I know they are faster than that LOL!) but in the real world no one gave a crap that I didn't have a ZL1 because on that day/track I was faster/lighter (for way less) so who cares LOL. OK the SS will be out handled by the ZL1 in a road racing setting which again no one at this track cared about ... but lets not pretend that the SS is a slouch in this regard and the difference isn't light years away especially with some cheaper suspension/brake/tire upgrades to the lighter SS.

In fact all the fastest times (1/4 mile) on the 6th Gen Camaro platform are from the A8 SS and not the A10 ZL1 (not yet anyway) ... I haven't checked but I'm sure you can say the same with the S550 platform (the A10 GTs own the fastest strait line times on the S550 platform and not the higher trim GT500s or 350s).

Even for AutoX my A8 SS is much cheaper to run for the day (tires and brake parts cheaper) and the SS is noticeably lighter (even with my ECS Supercharger system my car weighed 3580 lbs without me in it much lighter than a ZL1).

However if serious road racing is to be done a ZL1 or 1LE equipped car is the obvious way to go No Doubt!

In the end if the day it all depends on what your intended use for the car is as to which is the better value/buy situation.

But I agree ... now more than ever the current SS and GT offerings are the best stock platforms they have ever been in regards to being able to Boost and Go Have Fun being a strong solid starting foundation from the factory to punch way above their Price when it comes to upgrade-ability and potential.

If you want to mod/build (possibly save money not always) starting with an SS or GT is a great way to go with today's offerings .... But for those who only want to do some light mods but would rather just drive the car and have it be awesome already from the factory no upgrades really needed (or keep factory Warranty!!!) ... The ZL1 and GT500 are the Bag



Anyway with the money saved LOL I'm planning on grabbing another project ..... Putting an order in on a A90/A91 MKV Supra to build up for AutoX/Road Racing (I prefer smaller lighter track cars with shorter wheel base ... I know these new ZL1, GT500s are awesome on track but are Still very BIG and Long Sports Coupes even my SS).

Then The Gen 6 SS can be the dedicated Drag/Strait line weapon (was trying to stay somewhat balanced with the SS for handling and strait line but when the Supra arrives ... its Heads, Cam (pistons), and Converter time for the SS !)

-Jon

Good post