[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Then what is the big problem with it? If the weight is a wash? Obviously MT didn't have a problem with it like they did with the C8 track alignment right?

They had such a problem with it that they did it and posted the track alignment times.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

Where did MT have a problem with the track alignment? You have to remember, all this track alignment came from the c7 vs C8 test. Then they just used the same data when they did the gt500 vs C8. The gt500 vs C8 wasn’t done at the same time, you do realize that.

He probably doesn't understand that most cars come from the manufactor ready for the track when doing track and performance testing. You better believe that they all come in their optimal track configuration for track tests, or BDC, or lighting lap.

That c8 I suspect was the same one they used for road tests and impressions and then the track as well, so I'm sure it was shipped to impress on the street with an easy trip to the shop for the factory spec track alignment.

Hardly a more involved process than putting a cage in a car.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Newmoon should prove he’s a good guy by hosting a versus section outing at Tail of the Dragon.

How about VIR? It's on the NC border, and no speed limits...

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

How about VIR? It's on the NC border, and no speed limits...

No he bought a track car for the driving experience feeling and exhaust sound, not to track it.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

He probably doesn't understand that most cars come from the manufactor ready for the track when doing track and performance testing. You better believe that they all come in their optimal track configuration for track tests, or BDC, or lighting lap.

That c8 I suspect was the same one they used for road tests and impressions and then the track as well, so I'm sure it was shipped to impress on the street with an easy trip to the shop for the factory spec track alignment.

Hardly a more involved process than putting a cage in a car.

Yes! I was going to say this and forgot. GM sent the highest optioned most comfortable car for street testing, of course it had a cushy alignment.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

No he bought a track car for the driving experience feeling and exhaust sound, not to track it.

What experience? Checing the oil every day? Been there done that back in the day when I was a broke kid. No thanks...

[minn19]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

What experience? Checing the oil every day? Been there done that back in the day when I was a broke kid. No thanks...

Having owned a couple of GT350s it was a very fun car to drive and I’m glad I did “experience” it except for the all the bad parts of course.

[Wild One]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I'd actually be all in on a visit to the dragon but its 8 hrs from me.

LOL!

[BlaqWhole]

I like how people gloss over the fact that the C8 did 11.1 in the quarter. Even the Base did it. So for $60K to $65K you've got a 10 sec capable, fully warrantied, brand new Corvette. Just on that merit alone it should not be criticized. And it will beat the GT350 and GT350R at everything. So it couldn't beat a 760 HP GT500 around one of the straightest tracks. LOL!! I actually find it funny if that is the only thing people can bash it about. Like I said, Ford built ONE Mustang this entire Generation that could win but only at some things if conditions are met. That was their best max effort. Taking 6 years to provide a GT500 that will still lose to cheaper cars with less power.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I like how people gloss over the fact that the C8 did 11.1 in the quarter. Even the Base did it. So for $60K to $65K you've got a 10 sec capable, fully warrantied, brand new Corvette. Just on that merit alone it should not be criticized. And it will beat the GT350 and GT350R at everything. So it couldn't beat a 760 HP GT500 around one of the straightest tracks. LOL!! I actually find it funny if that is the only thing people can bash it about. Like I said, Ford built ONE Mustang this entire Generation that could win but only at some things if conditions are met. That was their best max effort. Taking 6 years to provide a GT500 that will still lose to cheaper cars with less power.

We didn't gloss over it. M6G did probably because the C8 running 11.1 on unprepped surface is .3 faster than their Messiah the GT500. Which at this point is kinda sad. Yeah yeah some YouTube kid ran a 10.x at a prepped strip. And the 760hp Mustang did beat a 495 hp C8 at VIR by a second.

The Ford fanboys will talk about how the Mustang shouldn't be compared to Corvettes and how we are all delusional to compare them.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

We didn't gloss over it. M6G did probably because the C8 running 11.1 on unprepped surface is .3 faster than their Messiah the GT500. Which at this point is kinda sad. Yeah yeah some YouTube kid ran a 10.x at a prepped strip. And the 760hp Mustang did beat a 495 hp C8 at VIR by a second.

The Ford fanboys will talk about how the Mustang shouldn't be compared to Corvettes and how we are all delusional to compare them.

GM has a wide selection of low 11 sec (and faster) cars that also can bang around a track. The ZL1, ZLE, Z06, ZR1, C8 Base/Z51. Of all these cars there is nothing Ford has besides the GT5 match up to them...and even the GT500 will still manage to lose if everything isn't stacked in it's favor. Just one car.

So what were they doing for 6 years? After that much time the GT500 should not be beaten at anything by anything other than the ZR1. Yet, the C8 Z51 us the only car that it would stand a chance at beating and even there it needs an advantage so it won't run mid 11s...and still manages to do worse at like 4 different things. Against the C8 Z51. Of all the cars they could get away with comparing it to, the C8 Z51 is the second easiest challenge and even it gave the 500 a hard time. This was the best of the 6th Gen Mustang. Maybe they should have put it up against the SLE or the C7 Z51...those would be the only cars that it could potentially beat at everything. And they would be within 4 tenths judging by that 11.5.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

GM has a wide selection of low 11 sec (and faster) cars that also can bang around a track. The ZL1, ZLE, Z06, ZR1, C8 Base/Z51. Of all these cars there is nothing Ford has besides the GT5 match up to them...and even the GT500 will still manage to lose if everything isn't stacked in it's favor. Just one car.

So what were they doing for 6 years? After that much time the GT500 should not be beaten at anything by anything other than the ZR1. Yet, the C8 Z51 us the only car that it would stand a chance at beating and even there it needs an advantage so it won't run mid 11s...and still manages to do worse at like 4 different things. Against the C8 Z51. Of all the cars they could get away with comparing it to, the C8 Z51 is the second easiest challenge and even it gave the 500 a hard time. This was the best of the 6th Gen Mustang. Maybe they should have put it up against the SLE or the C7 Z51...those would be the only cars that it could potentially beat at everything. And they would be within 4 tenths judging by that 11.5.

I don't think they spent enough time developing the S550 platform enough. They poured a lot of R&D into the Voodoo. Not to mention 2 generations of Coyotes in the 6th gen. And unless you are on a well prepped surface the Mustang just doesn't perform to expectation. The real question is: Did MT report the C8 track time in track alignment or the street alignment? They do say the track alignment cut 2-3 seconds off the C8 time. I'm going to assume it was the track alignment time. But 265hp more on a long track bested the C8 by 1 second. I call that a glowing victory for the C8 not the Mustang.

I'm not a chassis engineer but to me every Mustang I have driven and owned on the S550 platform feels lose and sloppy. Martin probably said it best when he said the Mustang feels a generation behind in the chassis and suspension.

[TreedYou]

Someone just ran 10.48 @ 131 at a strip, with a string of 10.5's. (drag stuff in the video starts at 11:00)
DA was 1129ft




Does sound like there is some serious torque reduction between shifts.
Makes sense, I am thinking the trans might not hold up to brutal shifting over time and adding power.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT500's performance is track-dependent. Put it on a track where it can't stretch it's legs and it will flat out lose. Which is why I wonder if it is a track-CAR or just a car that did good at that particular track. How well will it do against the ZLE when it doesn't have that 265 HP advantage even at the track where they compared it to the C8. The ZLE will have 10 gears to choose from, instant boost, and an engine with more torque. I don't think the GT500 will do well. And I think Ford needs to do their best to keep this comparison shelved.

That is why I said that for the GT500 to beat ANY Corvette is impressive even tho the Shelby has a 265 HP advantage and a (minimum) $10K price difference. You HAVE to overpower a Corvette if you want to beat them. Typically Ford needs some kind of advantage just to keep up. And a heavy advantage to win. And even then they can't win at everything.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This is a very good, very fair analysis. Tracks will very likely matter. I would expect the GT500 to win, if only by the slimmest margins, in all but the most technical tracks. Ford has had a lot of time to dissect the ZL1 and make certain that GT500 hits the mark wherever possible. The single limiting factor could be the chassis. How much was Ford able to do to the S550 to bridge the gap with Alpha and neutralize Camaro advantages in the corners? Given my brief time with 2017 and 2019 GT350s, they've made some really significant improvements. Assuming the GT500 is better than the GT350 I last drove, it's gonna be very interesting.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Approaching 500 pounds more, and wearing inferior tires in comparison, I would not be shocked to see the base 500 lose to the 350 on very technical tracks. I think tight tracks are going to eat up the base GT500.

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't think they spent enough time developing the S550 platform enough. They poured a lot of R&D into the Voodoo. Not to mention 2 generations of Coyotes in the 6th gen. And unless you are on a well prepped surface the Mustang just doesn't perform to expectation. The real question is: Did MT report the C8 track time in track alignment or the street alignment? They do say the track alignment cut 2-3 seconds off the C8 time. I'm going to assume it was the track alignment time. But 265hp more on a long track bested the C8 by 1 second. I call that a glowing victory for the C8 not the Mustang.

I'm not a chassis engineer but to me every Mustang I have driven and owned on the S550 platform feels lose and sloppy. Martin probably said it best when he said the Mustang feels a generation behind in the chassis and suspension.

I just finished watching another video from Speed Phenom. First of all, I have a lot of new-found respect for the kid. He drives his cars the way they were meant to be driven and he does good videos. The super-bubbly enthusiasm might be a bit much for some, but at my age, I’ve learned to filter.

https://youtu.be/yKDinIcuKoQ

Anyway, in this one he took his GT500 to another track in California. From his in car camera views it’s a very technical track. At one point he says that his car does not handle the corners as well as his GT350R. To me, this is very telling, because the kid has a lot of seat time in the GT350R and has shown that he knows how to drive that car. I would consider him an authority on comparing the chassis dynamics of the two vehicles, especially since he owns both. I do not recall if his GT500 has track pack, but I think it does, since there was a thing in one of his videos with the dealership installing canards.

This confirms for me that the CFTP is basically the “GT500R” without calling it that (all together now... “duhhh!!”). Add to that Ford statements that the GT500 is the drag car and the CFTP is the track car and a lot of the points I highlighted in the posts I quoted above, and some interesting scenarios start to surface.

GT500 drag car:

• Kills on prepped drag strip (10.6) so it does its job
• Does very very well on non-prepped surface (11.3). Probably edges out ZL1, but gets clipped by C8 Stingray (11.1)
• Would probably beat ZL1 and C8 Stingray on a 30-roll, 40-roll, 60-roll
• Will probably beat a ZL1 on a long track, lose to ZL1 on a tight track

Only besting a C8 Stingray Z51 by 1 second on a power friendly course while carrying a huge power advantage is an indication that the GT500 base may not be the track equivalent of the ZL1. Especially when the CFTP version smashes both the base GT500 and C8 Stingray Z51 on the track. Combined with Speed Phenom’s observations and track performance numbers from the GT350R / ZL1 H2H, I’m thinking ZL1 will show to be a better track car than base GT500. I must say that my assumption going in was that Ford would have it sorted out enough to edge out the ZL1 with the base car. Now I’m leaning the other way.

GT500 CFTP:

• We don’t know what it does on a prepped drag strip
• On an un-prepped strip it is slightly slower than GT500 base (11.5). Pretty much on par with ZLE, gets gapped by C8 Stingray
• Would probably beat ZLE and C8 Stingray on a 30-roll, 40-roll, 60-roll
• Will probably beat ZLE on a long track, lose to ZLE on a tight track.

From a road course perspective, it seems like the pecking order may be something like

GT350 —> GT500 —> GT350R —> ZL1 —> CFTP / ZLE

The CFTP vs ZLE, especially on technical tracks, will probably be a drivers’ race, depending on how much augmentation Ford was able to accomplish with the S550 chassis and how much impact the carbon wheels really contribute to the driving behavior of the CFTP. Can’t wait to see the head-to-heads.

[TreedYou]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I just finished watching another video from Speed Phenom. First of all, I have a lot of new-found respect for the kid. He drives his cars the way they were meant to be driven and he does good videos. The super-bubbly enthusiasm might be a bit much for some, but at my age, I’ve learned to filter.

https://youtu.be/yKDinIcuKoQ

Anyway, in this one he took his GT500 to another track in California. From his in car camera views it’s a very technical track. At one point he says that his car does not handle the corners as well as his GT350R. To me, this is very telling, because the kid has a lot of seat time in the GT350R and has shown that he knows how to drive that car. I would consider him an authority on comparing the chassis dynamics of the two vehicles, especially since he owns both. I do not recall if his GT500 has track pack, but I think it does, since there was a thing in one of his videos with the dealership installing canards.

This confirms for me that the CFTP is basically the “GT500R” without calling it that (all together now... “duhhh!!”). Add to that Ford statements that the GT500 is the drag car and the CFTP is the track car and a lot of the points I highlighted in the posts I quoted above, and some interesting scenarios start to surface.

GT500 drag car:

• Kills on prepped drag strip (10.6) so it does its job
• Does very very well on non-prepped surface (11.3). Probably edges out ZL1, but gets clipped by C8 Stingray (11.1)
• Would probably beat ZL1 and C8 Stingray on a 30-roll, 40-roll, 60-roll
• Will probably beat a ZL1 on a long track, lose to ZL1 on a tight track

Only besting a C8 Stingray Z51 by 1 second on a power friendly course while carrying a huge power advantage is an indication that the GT500 base may not be the track equivalent of the ZL1. Especially when the CFTP version smashes both the base GT500 and C8 Stingray Z51 on the track. Combined with Speed Phenom’s observations and track performance numbers from the GT350R / ZL1 H2H, I’m thinking ZL1 will show to be a better track car than base GT500. I must say that my assumption going in was that Ford would have it sorted out enough to edge out the ZL1 with the base car. Now I’m leaning the other way.

GT500 CFTP:

• We don’t know what it does on a prepped drag strip
• On an un-prepped strip it is slightly slower than GT500 base (11.5). Pretty much on par with ZLE, gets gapped by C8 Stingray
• Would probably beat ZLE and C8 Stingray on a 30-roll, 40-roll, 60-roll
• Will probably beat ZLE on a long track, lose to ZLE on a tight track.

From a road course perspective, it seems like the pecking order may be something like

GT350 —> GT500 —> GT350R —> ZL1 —> CFTP / ZLE

The CFTP vs ZLE, especially on technical tracks, will probably be a drivers’ race, depending on how much augmentation Ford was able to accomplish with the S550 chassis and how much impact the carbon wheels really contribute to the driving behavior of the CFTP. Can’t wait to see the head-to-heads.

Great post with good info, you add value every time you post and have a good attitude about it all.


Thank you sir!