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Old 03-25-2019, 05:50 PM   #1
SnakeEyeSS

 
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Layering different products

Maybe it's just the way I word my searches, but I can't find much discussion on layering different (brands) products. Stuff from the same brand is usually similar in chemistry or made to work together, but I've been experimenting with layering different brands products and how their chemistry's work together.

I had pulled out some BF Crystal Seal(old formula) that I haven't used in years because I didn't care for the durability or water effects, especially on some makes, after one rain or wash it looks bare. So I was starting fresh on the paint (nanoskin, Meguiar's Ultimate liquid, Fast finish), and after several days decided to try it again, on my wife's Mazda. I made sure everything was cured(several days) and used a basic car wash soap with no additives. Same results as a few years ago on a different car parked in a different area.

What is strange is I had already tried it on my Honda daily that was due for a fresh sealant. Same results, so I nanoskin and wash the car again to prepare for a sealant. Then it starts beading like it's freshly sealed. I'm thinking that I just removed the Crystal Seal and cleaned what was on the Meguiar's?

I did not spend enough time to perfectly clean three year old paint that is outside 9 hours a day, 2 years from it last nanoskin(Honda paint seems to keep Meguiars sealant for a LONG time IME) so no way the beading was from perfectly clean paint. The rule of thumb is layering doesn't change durability much, but maybe it actually does something, one product doesn't hold onto a different chemistry underneath?

I'm going to wait and see if the beading returns on the Mazda from the freshly cured ULW and FF(which were made to work together) that should be under the CS. I really don't want to start over so soon.
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Last edited by SnakeEyeSS; 03-25-2019 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 03-27-2019, 07:30 PM   #2
Joe M 2012 2SS


 
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When layering products you always want the most durable one on the bottom, for example, your putting a coating, sealant, and a topper on. You would want the coating 1st, sealant second, topper last.

Another example is using sealant and wax, put the sealant on first, and the wax on second, as the sealant is more durable. That being said there are many mislabeled products on the market today, example....Megs Ultimate Wax. It is a polymer based product. Wax is made from natural ingredients, not man made, so this product is actually a sealant.

Some waxes also are under the "cleaner wax" category, these waxes contain either a solvent, or a very mild abrasive, and occasionally a combination of the two. These should not be used on top of a sealant because they will strip most of it off when applying.

Layering is a good idea, to maximize the durability of the initial protection applied to the paint.

You may be experiencing diminished results on the Mazda due to improper bonding from residues left from claying. After claying use either IPA (15-20%) and distilled water, or a paint prep product that removes oils/residue. There are many to choose from.
Wear nitrile gloves to avoid oils from your hands getting on the surface, which will also reduce the bond of the sealant. Keep the gloves on when wiping down any excess after sealant application, again to avoid oils from your hands getting on towels used for this purpose.

My best guess as to why your Honda is getting a better bond is due to the generally soft paint that is found on Honda's. Because the paint is soft, the sealant gets to the pores easier, which forms a better bond. Mazda paint tends to be harder, but can vary from car to car.

Washing the car after claying is not needed, instead do the IPA, or a paint prep product like Carpro Eraser to remove residue.

The Honda probably also still beads possibly due to not being strip washed prior to claying. Whenever your going to apply a fresh base coat of sealant, be sure to first strip wash the car.

Many car shampoos today contain gloss enhancers, and you don't want to use this type of shampoo for a strip wash. Instead, use one without any, and mix in 4-5 ounces of APC in your wash bucket. Only wash in the shade and do not allow it to dry on the surface. Rinse well.

After using the Nanoskin, the IPA/Paint Prep wipe down will remove any oils/residue left over, and you will have the best possible surface for your sealant to bond to.
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Last edited by Joe M 2012 2SS; 03-27-2019 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe M 2012 2SS View Post
When layering products you always want the most durable one on the bottom, for example, your putting a coating, sealant, and a topper on. You would want the coating 1st, sealant second, topper last.

Another example is using sealant and wax, put the sealant on first, and the wax on second, as the sealant is more durable. That being said there are many mislabeled products on the market today, example....Megs Ultimate Wax. It is a polymer based product. Wax is made from natural ingredients, not man made, so this product is actually a sealant.

Some waxes also are under the "cleaner wax" category, these waxes contain either a solvent, or a very mild abrasive, and occasionally a combination of the two. These should not be used on top of a sealant because they will strip most of it off when applying.

Layering is a good idea, to maximize the durability of the initial protection applied to the paint.

You may be experiencing diminished results on the Mazda due to improper bonding from residues left from claying. After claying use either IPA (15-20%) and distilled water, or a paint prep product that removes oils/residue. There are many to choose from.
Wear nitrile gloves to avoid oils from your hands getting on the surface, which will also reduce the bond of the sealant. Keep the gloves on when wiping down any excess after sealant application, again to avoid oils from your hands getting on towels used for this purpose.

My best guess as to why your Honda is getting a better bond is due to the generally soft paint that is found on Honda's. Because the paint is soft, the sealant gets to the pores easier, which forms a better bond. Mazda paint tends to be harder, but can vary from car to car.

Washing the car after claying is not needed, instead do the IPA, or a paint prep product like Carpro Eraser to remove residue.

The Honda probably also still beads possibly due to not being strip washed prior to claying. Whenever your going to apply a fresh base coat of sealant, be sure to first strip wash the car.

Many car shampoos today contain gloss enhancers, and you don't want to use this type of shampoo for a strip wash. Instead, use one without any, and mix in 4-5 ounces of APC in your wash bucket. Only wash in the shade and do not allow it to dry on the surface. Rinse well.

After using the Nanoskin, the IPA/Paint Prep wipe down will remove any oils/residue left over, and you will have the best possible surface for your sealant to bond to.
Please don't take this the wrong way or be offended by you offering advice, but you assumed a lot, and answered a lot of questions I didn't ask. The post was to simply state an observation of layering different chemistry's since there is never really any discussions on it. Most detail hobbyists just constantly layer stuff or try new things, without discussing what may actually be going on with multiple brand combinations. For instance, I think Chemical guys wash and wax is excellent at maintaining some of Meguiar's polymer sealants. It's a very cheap and effective combo that can bring nearly a half to a year of beading protection for what amounts to a few dollars and a single application. I have always been amazed at the obsession of botique and expensive products that just don't really work all that well, and the ones that dare to compare them to the cheap stuff usually find they are vastly over priced or overrated. Look at Jimbo at Auto Detailing Podcasts tests of the Turtle Wax Spray Wax, I don't really use Turtle Wax stuff but the way its value laid waste to so many well regarded products is just hilarious.


I know ULW is a sealant, Meg's readily addmited from the start what it was, they labeled it that way on purpose for the general public to recognize it as a paint protection product. I fully know what a cleaner wax is, and simply don't use them, I have no reason too unless I get a particularly nasty bird crap etching on a hot day. I did strip(3 or 4 ounces of citrus daily, with 6 ounces of Meguiar's Super Soap thrown in, that stuff is very sudsy) wash the Honda, not that it even means anything, tests have shown how strong these things are. Apex Detail, Auto Detailing Podcast, Pan are using pretty harsh stuff and IPA isn't even erasing Meguiar's newer stuff on the first pass, which Meg's recommend putting fast finish on top of ULW lock in ULW's shine. They say they even developed it for that, the more durable product on too of the weaker one.

I didn't care if 100% of the sealant was gone, because I was putting on the same thing anyway. The only way to truly, surely strip sealants anymore is basically paint and body prep wash. Just because something doesn't bead or sheet just means that part of the sealant is gone.

I haven't found my Honda's paint to be soft at all, unless I am just taking extraordinary care of it. And I know about gloss enhancers in soap. That's why I keep several kinds on hand. Extreme body wash and wax for most washes, citrus daily for days I am adding to the protection, and have tried the Turtle Wax M.A.X. to "strip". It actually seems to work fairly well but you have to use a ridiculous amount to actually "strip": 9oz per gallon.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:32 AM   #4
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The only thing I've ever used on top of a sealant is a carnauba wax. Didn't last long but added a different look to the black paint. Both were Blackfire products, but I don't think that matters.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:24 PM   #5
Joe M 2012 2SS


 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeEyeSS View Post
Please don't take this the wrong way or be offended by you offering advice, but you assumed a lot, and answered a lot of questions I didn't ask. The post was to simply state an observation of layering different chemistry's since there is never really any discussions on it. Most detail hobbyists just constantly layer stuff or try new things, without discussing what may actually be going on with multiple brand combinations. For instance, I think Chemical guys wash and wax is excellent at maintaining some of Meguiar's polymer sealants. It's a very cheap and effective combo that can bring nearly a half to a year of beading protection for what amounts to a few dollars and a single application. I have always been amazed at the obsession of botique and expensive products that just don't really work all that well, and the ones that dare to compare them to the cheap stuff usually find they are vastly over priced or overrated. Look at Jimbo at Auto Detailing Podcasts tests of the Turtle Wax Spray Wax, I don't really use Turtle Wax stuff but the way its value laid waste to so many well regarded products is just hilarious.


I know ULW is a sealant, Meg's readily addmited from the start what it was, they labeled it that way on purpose for the general public to recognize it as a paint protection product. I fully know what a cleaner wax is, and simply don't use them, I have no reason too unless I get a particularly nasty bird crap etching on a hot day. I did strip(3 or 4 ounces of citrus daily, with 6 ounces of Meguiar's Super Soap thrown in, that stuff is very sudsy) wash the Honda, not that it even means anything, tests have shown how strong these things are. Apex Detail, Auto Detailing Podcast, Pan are using pretty harsh stuff and IPA isn't even erasing Meguiar's newer stuff on the first pass, which Meg's recommend putting fast finish on top of ULW lock in ULW's shine. They say they even developed it for that, the more durable product on too of the weaker one.

I didn't care if 100% of the sealant was gone, because I was putting on the same thing anyway. The only way to truly, surely strip sealants anymore is basically paint and body prep wash. Just because something doesn't bead or sheet just means that part of the sealant is gone.

I haven't found my Honda's paint to be soft at all, unless I am just taking extraordinary care of it. And I know about gloss enhancers in soap. That's why I keep several kinds on hand. Extreme body wash and wax for most washes, citrus daily for days I am adding to the protection, and have tried the Turtle Wax M.A.X. to "strip". It actually seems to work fairly well but you have to use a ridiculous amount to actually "strip": 9oz per gallon.
I'm not offended at all.
I did mention the word "guess" in my original response to why the sealant bonded better to the Honda, and after polishing enough of them, I have come to know that paint on Honda's is soft.

Anything more than a no cut pad with finishing polish produces marring. Anything more than light compound with a medium/light cutting pad produces excess haze.

Is it possible you have a Honda that is the exception to the norm? Yes. But again my statement was based upon experience with Honda paint.

I also stated that it was "probably" not bonding on the Mazda as well, due to a strip wash not being performed, or lack of wearing nitrile gloves when applying. In your process, you mentioned you washed/clayed/washed, with no mention of an initial strip wash performed, thus my "probable" conclusion was formed.


Not everyone knows that protection products are mislabeled, and because you made no mention of it, I again wasn't going to "assume" that you did.

You stated also that layering doesn't do much for durability, I have actually found the opposite true, while the top layer may not be improved, the bottom, or first layer will definitely see increased durability vs. as a standalone.


Lastly, prepping the paint prior to applying any type initial protection is the most important aspect of a products durability. Again you never mentioned any type of prep after claying, so I included the proper steps to prep instead of "assuming" that you did it.

Just based my responses on 37 years of detailing experience, and what steps you stated that were performed.
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