[Chevelle vs Camaro]

Originally Posted by Msquared

The Dexos R certification supercedes Dexos 2. The protective qualities of 0w40 Supercar oil do not supercede 0w40 x3, though. 0w40 ESP x3 is clearly superior to 0w40 Supercar (nee ESP non-x3). x3 is also compliant with any owner's manual that called for Dexos 2 (it is Dexos 2 certified). It does not technically comply with new manuals calling for DexosR (did that start in 2023?), but if I had one of those newer cars I'd still use x3 because it's cheaper and better for heavy use (I autocross and track a fair amount). That said, if you want to stick to what a new manual says and use Supercar, I think you're fine.

Wouldn’t the cert have a higher performance requirement? Why do you think the ESP is a better oil? I’d think GM would use it instead if it was….Doesn’t make sense that it’s cheaper.


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[ZPirate]

Originally Posted by Chevelle vs Camaro

Wouldn’t the cert have a higher performance requirement? Why do you think the ESP is a better oil? I’d think GM would use it instead if it was….Doesn’t make sense that it’s cheaper.


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Supercar is subject to the Corvette Tax. ESP x3 isn't. Simple economics.

[olrocker]

The real question here is, if the manual suggests that 5w-30 is acceptable IF 0w-40 is not available, and 0w-40 IS available, why would anyone even consider using 5w-30 ever? At all, for ANY reason?

Use 0w-40. Just use it and move on with life. End of argument.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by Chevelle vs Camaro

Wouldn’t the cert have a higher performance requirement? Why do you think the ESP is a better oil? I’d think GM would use it instead if it was….Doesn’t make sense that it’s cheaper.

I don't know what's actually different in the criteria between Dexos 2 and Dexos R. It may only have to do with ash content (and therefore less deposits on intake valves and emissions equipment). The Dexos 2 cert already entailed the highest wear standards of any standard in history, so the newer R one may not require even better wear protection. You need to understand that 0w40 Supercar is literally just the original 0w40 ESP (not ESP x3) rebranded as Supercar. The oil has not changed its specs at all.

Between the 2 0w40 Dexos oils, the ESP x3 is better at wear protection in high-temp/high-shear conditions. It's literally in the specs:

• x3's HTHS viscosity is 3.8 vs Supercar's 3.53.
• x3's kinematic viscosity at 100c is 14.1 vs Supercar's 12.9.

Those are meaningful numbers regarding the protect each oil can provide during heavy use.

I have no idea why x3 is cheaper. Maybe someone at Autozone accidentally an entire container ship of the stuff and now they are trying to get rid of it cheap. Could be anything.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by olrocker

The real question here is, if the manual suggests that 5w-30 is acceptable IF 0w-40 is not available, and 0w-40 IS available, why would anyone even consider using 5w-30 ever? At all, for ANY reason?

Use 0w-40. Just use it and move on with life. End of argument.

Because the 0W-40 isn't necessary for street use.

[SSShark]

Originally Posted by olrocker

The real question here is, if the manual suggests that 5w-30 is acceptable IF 0w-40 is not available, and 0w-40 IS available, why would anyone even consider using 5w-30 ever? At all, for ANY reason?

Use 0w-40. Just use it and move on with life. End of argument.

I tend to agree oldrocker

[haggler]

Originally Posted by Msquared

It's not just the cats. It's also the intake valves. Any direct-injection is prone to intake valve buildup due to oil because it doesn't get "washed" by gasoline, and there's no way to completely eliminate oil from the intake charge. The Dexos standard is largely a standard to make oil less likely to create the buildup (I don't know if sulphated ash is the only culprit, but I'm sure it's one). It also happens to entail the highest wear standards of any certification that I know of, so it's not as if someone is sacrificing wear protection to get the intake and cat protections.

Yes, but there are tons of direct injected european cars using this euro M1 0w40 oil, namely Porsche. Lower SAPS = lower DI valve deposits is debatable. But lower SAPS definitely saves emissions systems in a engine burning oil. Besides, ESP is only considered "mid SAPS." My personal belief is that carbon deposits (and fuel dilution) are more of a result of ECU tuning. I've seen it on early european TGDI motors from the 2000s that were heavily carboned up (VW/Audi).
The main reason why ESPx3 was created was for Porsches equipped with Gasoline Particulate Filters which they use for vehicles in Europe. As I understand it they function similar to a DPF, so they benefit from lower SAPS.

[haggler]

Originally Posted by Msquared

I have no idea why x3 is cheaper. Maybe someone at Autozone accidentally an entire container ship of the stuff and now they are trying to get rid of it cheap. Could be anything.

It's all marketing. With the Camaro going away this is the "corvette oil." Grandpa is going to have to pay up at the Chevy dealer.
Most people dont understand the differences in these oils. The market for ESPx3 is basically Porsche owners, and in the DIY space (relative to Porsche owners) the demand is probably far less than the supply.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Because the 0W-40 isn't necessary for street use.

Wrong. Read the manual again.

[GAOLDGUY]

Originally Posted by haggler

Yes, but there are tons of direct injected european cars using this euro M1 0w40 oil, namely Porsche. Lower SAPS = lower DI valve deposits is debatable. But lower SAPS definitely saves emissions systems in a engine burning oil. Besides, ESP is only considered "mid SAPS." My personal belief is that carbon deposits (and fuel dilution) are more of a result of ECU tuning. I've seen it on early european TGDI motors from the 2000s that were heavily carboned up (VW/Audi).
The main reason why ESPx3 was created was for Porsches equipped with Gasoline Particulate Filters which they use for vehicles in Europe. As I understand it they function similar to a DPF, so they benefit from lower SAPS.

Not trying to hijack but can you tell me specifically what DOES lower DI valve deposits. I'm good with either of the approved oils, 5-30 or Supercar, but my main concern is reducing the valve deposits.

[paradigm]

Originally Posted by GAOLDGUY

Not trying to hijack but can you tell me specifically what DOES lower DI valve deposits. I'm good with either of the approved oils, 5-30 or Supercar, but my main concern is reducing the valve deposits.

A catch can collecting oil between crank case and intake. With these DI motors you do not want to recirculate dirty air with water / oil / etc and have that become a sludge on valves. I am unsure how much if any the 0w40 dexos 2 improves on the 5w30 with respect to valve deposits.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by olrocker

Wrong. Read the manual again.

Nowhere in the manual does it say that the 0W-40 is required anywhere but on the track. Full stop.

The 0W-40 is "recommended" and the 5W-30 is perfectly fine "for street use." All stated in the manual.

[arpad_m]

Currently at 152 posts, this is slowly becoming another Worthy Oil Thread

[haggler]

Originally Posted by GAOLDGUY

Not trying to hijack but can you tell me specifically what DOES lower DI valve deposits. I'm good with either of the approved oils, 5-30 or Supercar, but my main concern is reducing the valve deposits.

There is no conclusive answer. Supposedly a catch can, but there are plenty of examples of stock DI engines that don't have carbon build up issues affecting the performance of the engine. Many of these have built in air-oil separators.
Sure, if you boroscope the engine there may be some carbon on the valves but the impact, if any, is questionable. Also, even those with catch-cans installed are quick to say that it only delays build up carbon, it does not prevent it. Here are some examples, high mileage DI engines with little if any impact on performance:Mazda skyactiv series and Honda L (1.5t) engine.
I would only add a catch can if my powertrain warranty was already voided with other engine modifications.