[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

With such a huge increase, I wonder what's going to stop companies from importing to Mexico or Canada first and then to US to avoid the tariff. Surely the cost of doing it this way is cheaper than the equivalent of the cost of the vehicle.

The tariffs are based on where the vehicles are built. Built in China, then shipping to Mexico won’t cut it. Building in Mexico? Stay tuned.

[docwra]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

I wasn't likely to ever be in the market for a Chinese-made vehicle unless it was my only choice, and I wouldn't be enthusiastic about it.

Why not? Where a car is manufactured doesnt affect the ownership experience, does it?

You see quite a few MGs round these parts and BYD are making inroads too - my company uses them as rental cars and the guys are generally very positive about them, the cheapest MG EV is less than the cheapest ICE Ford Focus too.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by docwra

Why not? Where a car is manufactured doesnt affect the ownership experience, does it?

You see quite a few MGs round these parts and BYD are making inroads too - my company uses them as rental cars and the guys are generally very positive about them, the cheapest MG EV is less than the cheapest ICE Ford Focus too.

As an automotive analyst I see it as an interesting development that has long reaching tentacles.

As a customer I see it as I want the best product at the best price and would be only moderately interested in where it comes from.

As an American I am concerned about the economic effects of dumping low cost / high quality product on the US market. Domestic production would decline, jobs would be lost and the US economy would take a solid broadside hit. For those old enough to remember when the US had companies that manufactured televisions and radios, or had a thriving textile industry in the middle Atlantic states, or the impact Japanese imported cars had on employment in the US, combine the impacts of all of these and you have reason to be concerned.

With the auto industry, it’s not just the plant that rolls the vehicle out the door. It’s also all of the parts suppliers from the big Tier I suppliers to the mom and pop that supplies towels and janitorial services. And its the small towns that grow up around these plants and businesses.

[Martinjlm]

Two interesting but incredibly different takes on electric vehicles. Totally opposite ends of the vehicle spectrum.

Electric Garbage Trucks help supplement the grid

Mack garbage trucks join bidirectional charging game
Evergreen Waste Services electric Mack garbage trucks will collect refuse during the day and charge the grid overnight.

Multiple automakers see bidirectional charging — which allows electric vehicles to send stored electricity back into the power grid — as a useful tool for managing regional energy networks.

However, those players, including BMW, Ford, Hyundai, Kia and Volvo, all make light vehicles. It turns out there's a bigger dog in the house: the Mack bulldog.

Evergreen Waste Services just acquired the first of five Mack LR Electric garbage trucks it plans to use in Delaware. The EVs will allow the refuse collector to play an energy arbitrage game made possible by the truck's bidirectional charging feature.

The Hockessin, Del., company's acquisition increase its 50-truck fleet by 10 percent. The first truck went into service this week. It will make 600 pick-ups and travel about 40 miles each day.
Besides reducing the noise from garbage trucks as they navigate neighborhoods on their collection runs, Evergreen Waste Services plans to charge the vehicles at night when electricity rates are low and sell some of that energy back to grid operators during peak demand hours. The savings will help offset operational costs.

"The LR Electric purchase will be a home run if the vehicle can handle 600 stops and go back to the yard because it significantly allows us to save money on diesel and maintenance needs," Marcus Stevens, CEO of Evergreen Waste Services, said in a statement.

"It will be a grand slam if we discharge energy back to the grid and receive a credit back. That makes this really attractive," he said.

Stevens expects the refuse trucks to return to the company's depot with the batteries about 40 percent depleted. The plan is to send the remaining power back to the grid during peak hours and then charge late at night into the early morning. Evergreen will have the trucks plugged in and ready to go by 5 a.m. each day.

Rivian reports huge losses
Rivian reported $1.45 billion net loss for the 1wst quarter of 2024. Revenue also increased to $1.2 billion on a 71% increase in sales. A lot of the loss is tied to retooling the Normal Ill plant where they build the R1T pickup and R1S utility. After the retool Rivian will be able to also build the recently revealed R2 and R3. The original plan was to build a plant near Atlanta to produce those vehicles. They expect to still build that plant, but for the short to mid-term, all product will come out of the Normal plant. So now the race is to get the R2 to market at higher volume to drive enough revenue to stem the money bleed.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Two interesting but incredibly different takes on electric vehicles. Totally opposite ends of the vehicle spectrum.

Electric Garbage Trucks help supplement the grid

Mack garbage trucks join bidirectional charging game
Evergreen Waste Services electric Mack garbage trucks will collect refuse during the day and charge the grid overnight.

Multiple automakers see bidirectional charging — which allows electric vehicles to send stored electricity back into the power grid — as a useful tool for managing regional energy networks.

However, those players, including BMW, Ford, Hyundai, Kia and Volvo, all make light vehicles. It turns out there's a bigger dog in the house: the Mack bulldog.

Evergreen Waste Services just acquired the first of five Mack LR Electric garbage trucks it plans to use in Delaware. The EVs will allow the refuse collector to play an energy arbitrage game made possible by the truck's bidirectional charging feature.

The Hockessin, Del., company's acquisition increase its 50-truck fleet by 10 percent. The first truck went into service this week. It will make 600 pick-ups and travel about 40 miles each day.
Besides reducing the noise from garbage trucks as they navigate neighborhoods on their collection runs, Evergreen Waste Services plans to charge the vehicles at night when electricity rates are low and sell some of that energy back to grid operators during peak demand hours. The savings will help offset operational costs.

"The LR Electric purchase will be a home run if the vehicle can handle 600 stops and go back to the yard because it significantly allows us to save money on diesel and maintenance needs," Marcus Stevens, CEO of Evergreen Waste Services, said in a statement.

"It will be a grand slam if we discharge energy back to the grid and receive a credit back. That makes this really attractive," he said.

Stevens expects the refuse trucks to return to the company's depot with the batteries about 40 percent depleted. The plan is to send the remaining power back to the grid during peak hours and then charge late at night into the early morning. Evergreen will have the trucks plugged in and ready to go by 5 a.m. each day.

Rivian reports huge losses
Rivian reported $1.45 billion net loss for the 1wst quarter of 2024. Revenue also increased to $1.2 billion on a 71% increase in sales. A lot of the loss is tied to retooling the Normal Ill plant where they build the R1T pickup and R1S utility. After the retool Rivian will be able to also build the recently revealed R2 and R3. The original plan was to build a plant near Atlanta to produce those vehicles. They expect to still build that plant, but for the short to mid-term, all product will come out of the Normal plant. So now the race is to get the R2 to market at higher volume to drive enough revenue to stem the money bleed.

Feeding power back into the grid during an emergency might be attractive but I cant see it being a great up front sell. There's energy loss when charging those batteries and energy loss when they feed it back in. The power company would have to pay a ?% premium for taking that energy back or its a huge net loss for the truck owner.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by docwra

Why not? Where a car is manufactured doesnt affect the ownership experience, does it?

You see quite a few MGs round these parts and BYD are making inroads too - my company uses them as rental cars and the guys are generally very positive about them, the cheapest MG EV is less than the cheapest ICE Ford Focus too.

MartinJim basically said what I was thinking. To expand on that, China isn't a great partner to the US for a lot of reasons. China makes some arguably good and high quality vehicles, but that's only half the equation for me.

I don't need or want a cheap EV; saving money isn't my top priority.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Feeding power back into the grid during an emergency might be attractive but I cant see it being a great up front sell. There's energy loss when charging those batteries and energy loss when they feed it back in. The power company would have to pay a ?% premium for taking that energy back or its a huge net loss for the truck owner.

Electricity prices in my area range from $0.127/ kWh off-peak to $0.2495/ kWh at peak and $1.03 during critical load times. What the garbage truck fleet is saying is they can charge off-peak, use approximately 40% of the charge on a typical run, then return to the garage during peak hours and put some of the energy back into the grid. Suppose they only get @0.15/kWh fo the energy they return to the grid. It’s still $0.023 more than they paid. Then when rates shift to off-pea, they can charge the vehicle again at $0.127/kWh. When it all washes out, it’s a net positive.

Got to 3:50 of this video and you can see a better description of how this works plus a real world example where a school bus fleet nets $10k per bus doing this exact thing.

https://youtu.be/gtzMhQtl364?si=iLdOWeWp4DvnW5_M

[docwra]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

MartinJim basically said what I was thinking. To expand on that, China isn't a great partner to the US for a lot of reasons. China makes some arguably good and high quality vehicles, but that's only half the equation for me.

I totally get it but surely thats for government to legislate, not for people to have to make sacrifices at individual level. And why only cars, do you worry where the chips in your electronic devices come from?
Apparently 21% of all US imports come from China, would 20% of car sales be that big of a problem?

I don't need or want a cheap EV; saving money isn't my top priority.

If you dont want to save money or create less pollution (or even do both at the same time!) then youre in a very small minority.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

As an automotive analyst I see it as an interesting development that has long reaching tentacles.

As a customer I see it as I want the best product at the best price and would be only moderately interested in where it comes from.

As an American I am concerned about the economic effects of dumping low cost / high quality product on the US market. Domestic production would decline, jobs would be lost and the US economy would take a solid broadside hit. For those old enough to remember when the US had companies that manufactured televisions and radios, or had a thriving textile industry in the middle Atlantic states, or the impact Japanese imported cars had on employment in the US, combine the impacts of all of these and you have reason to be concerned.

With the auto industry, it’s not just the plant that rolls the vehicle out the door. It’s also all of the parts suppliers from the big Tier I suppliers to the mom and pop that supplies towels and janitorial services. And its the small towns that grow up around these plants and businesses.

I don't necessarily know the answer, but why can't we just compete. Cost of labor (UAW)? Material sourcing? At best a tariff feels like a lazy way to buy time for our domestic makes that are behind. It's also just an admission that we have failed and are outpaced. However, it's the one thing both Biden and Trump agree on so there's that.....

[90503]

Originally Posted by docwra

I totally get it but surely thats for government to legislate, not for people to have to make sacrifices at individual level. And why only cars, do you worry where the chips in your electronic devices come from?
Apparently 21% of all US imports come from China, would 20% of car sales be that big of a problem?



If you dont want to save money or create less pollution (or even do both at the same time!) then youre in a very small minority.

Good points. It never bothered gm and others to import Chinese made cars as well as tons of Chinese made parts for assembly, with their badges on them before, but now...omg...someone else is bringing in Chinese EVs! We can't have that, its bad for the US! (But not bad if gm does it).

gm, welcome to the club. China has been costing the US jobs and economic security for years and years. Now that it may affect those precious profits, China is now your adversary?...lol...gimme a break.

I thought we had a planet to save with EVs? I guess that can wait until gm says go ahead. We'll need more climate change studies that will match gm's time line for the end of the world.

These tariffs will only hamper the ability of China to remove itself as an emerging economy that gives them the excuse to build unlimited coal power plants and pollute the rest of the planet forever, which they will likely do anyway.

The EV transition away from fossil fuels is proving to be a cruel charade on the American people. Biden wants to wave the flag now and claim to be attempting to protect America.

For that to happen, this whole EV transition needs to be stopped and return to energy independence as we had once upon a time not too long ago.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by snizzle

I don't necessarily know the answer, but why can't we just compete. Cost of labor (UAW)? Material sourcing? At best a tariff feels like a lazy way to buy time for our domestic makes that are behind. It's also just an admission that we have failed and are outpaced. However, it's the one thing both Biden and Trump agree on so there's that.....

Because everybody’s got their thumb on the scale. A lot of people in this thread complain that IRA provides incentives for people to buy EVs. Some of those same people say they would buy an inexpensive Chinese EV if it was sold here. What they don’t know or account for is that the Chinese government incentives for EV manufacturers make IRA look like chump change. 10s of billions of dollars. It allows Chinese manufacturers to sell EVs in China at under $10k equivalent to build up a manufacturing economy of scale. Then those same companies sell those same vehicles in Europe for double the price, but still below European OEM prices. A much more integrated approach to government subsidy.

The purpose of the IRA is to provide incentives to buyers already intending to buy EVs to buy the ones with more North American content (more jobs). The Chinese subsidies go straight to the manufacturers and put them in a more advantageous position to export cars, not just EVs. Don’t believe me? Take a trip to Europe or Mexico. You won’t be able to avoid the billboards advertising low cost Chinese cars.

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by docwra

I totally get it but surely thats for government to legislate, not for people to have to make sacrifices at individual level. And why only cars, do you worry where the chips in your electronic devices come from?
Apparently 21% of all US imports come from China, would 20% of car sales be that big of a problem?

It's not sacrifice; it's choice. I have choice of great American cars which are mostly sourced and produced in North America. If Chinese car companies come along and put the Americans out of business; I will have less choice.

I no longer have a choice about where most of my electronics come from. It used to be you could buy computers and TV's made in the USA, as well as from Japan. Then, China came along and undercut everyone.

Originally Posted by docwra

If you dont want to save money or create less pollution (or even do both at the same time!) then youre in a very small minority.

Yes, I am. I didn't buy my Camaro to save money. A used Corolla would have saved me a boat load.

You added the piece about pollution. My vehicle choices in the past haven't been the greenest, including my Camaro.

Perhaps we share more in common than you think.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by 90503

Good points. It never bothered gm and others to import Chinese made cars as well as tons of Chinese made parts for assembly, with their badges on them before, but now...omg...someone else is bringing in Chinese EVs! We can't have that, its bad for the US! (But not bad if gm does it).

https://insideevs.com/features/71901...ahead-of-west/

Have no fear, my friend. We will tariff and subsidize our way to prosperity!