[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Totally pissed that they sent the Blazer to be made in Mexico. I might have bought one for my wife, but not so sure now....

Why? It's not like the vehicles assembled in Mexico are junk.

[cellsafemode]

if your definition of a muscle car is an inefficient or simply overwhelming show of power without regard for practicality or function, then yes, the muscle car is dead as far as any modern and future automobiles are concerned.

As a pony / sports car, it totally could continue as electric. We've already seen working examples of electrified 6th gens, so if the performance is similar or better in the electrics then I dont see any issue.

body crushing acceleration and handling is far far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more important than exploding gasoline under the hood.

but the people crying over the death of the ICE are totally missing the point. It's not a question over electric vs ICE. All cars will be electric within our lifetime. It's a guarantee. What is being overlooked is whether or not you'll be driving your car for much longer.

It's almost guaranteed that robots will soon be driving cars on public roads regularly. As soon as that reaches a tipping point of success, insurance companies will penalize drivers who drive their own car. As soon as that happens, people will have to make the financial decision to save money and have robots drive them or spend more money to drive themselves. They'll pick the robot. As soon as that happens, they'll stop purchasing cars and instead cars will become a service you order on demand. Because _That_ reality is the one that makes the most financial sense. Cars are horrible purchases that spend over 90% of their time losing money sitting idle and taking up valuable real estate.

So be upset about electric motors taking away a hobby. Because shortly after or even simultaneously, you'll be forced out of the drivers seat and have something far more intrusive to be upset about. Being priced/taxed out of driving your own car.

[94turbolsx]

Not too worried about this. Mark Dickens is pretty well established on the performance and motorsport side of GM.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

if your definition of a muscle car is an inefficient or simply overwhelming show of power without regard for practicality or function, then yes, the muscle car is dead as far as any modern and future automobiles are concerned.

As a pony / sports car, it totally could continue as electric. We've already seen working examples of electrified 6th gens, so if the performance is similar or better in the electrics then I dont see any issue.

body crushing acceleration and handling is far far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more important than exploding gasoline under the hood.

but the people crying over the death of the ICE are totally missing the point. It's not a question over electric vs ICE. All cars will be electric within our lifetime. It's a guarantee. What is being overlooked is whether or not you'll be driving your car for much longer.

It's almost guaranteed that robots will soon be driving cars on public roads regularly. As soon as that reaches a tipping point of success, insurance companies will penalize drivers who drive their own car. As soon as that happens, people will have to make the financial decision to save money and have robots drive them or spend more money to drive themselves. They'll pick the robot. As soon as that happens, they'll stop purchasing cars and instead cars will become a service you order on demand. Because _That_ reality is the one that makes the most financial sense. Cars are horrible purchases that spend over 90% of their time losing money sitting idle and taking up valuable real estate.

So be upset about electric motors taking away a hobby. Because shortly after or even simultaneously, you'll be forced out of the drivers seat and have something far more intrusive to be upset about. Being priced/taxed out of driving your own car.

I don't believe this will happen in the timeframe you suggest. There is too much inexpensive oil being pulled from the ground, and new reserves being discovered for electric to become economically advantageous. The only way electric cars overtake internal combustion is if government forces the issue. For a glimpse of what that looks like, see Paris and the yellow vest people. Just my opinion.

OTOH, if breakthroughs in battery technology make the tech less expensive and electric cars can compete on price with internal combustion, then more people will buy them. Ultimately, the Market will decide.

[Bhobbs]

We are being pushed towards buying electric cars but I’m told to not run my A/C in the summer to avoid blackouts. The same electric grid that can barely handle the current demands will suddenly be able to handle everyone charging electric cars? I don’t buy it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Emoto

I don't believe this will happen in the timeframe you suggest. There is too much inexpensive oil being pulled from the ground, and new reserves being discovered for electric to become economically advantageous. The only way electric cars overtake internal combustion is if government forces the issue. For a glimpse of what that looks like, see Paris and the yellow vest people. Just my opinion.

OTOH, if breakthroughs in battery technology make the tech less expensive and electric cars can compete on price with internal combustion, then more people will buy them. Ultimately, the Market will decide.

Agree with what your saying and the yellow vest analogy.

There are a lot of less affluent people that drive cars that are 15 to 20 years old. The battery replacement cost for a 2011-15 Nissan LEAF is $5,499. Re-manufactured cost $2,850. How is that going to work for the poor? Free Uber pod rides?

There is an estimated 264 million cars registered in the US now. They aren't going to go away overnight.

Telling a German they can't drive their own car will be as socially controversial as trying to take away an American's right to own a gun

[fastball]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

if your definition of a muscle car is an inefficient or simply overwhelming show of power without regard for practicality or function, then yes, the muscle car is dead as far as any modern and future automobiles are concerned.

As a pony / sports car, it totally could continue as electric. We've already seen working examples of electrified 6th gens, so if the performance is similar or better in the electrics then I dont see any issue.

body crushing acceleration and handling is far far farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more important than exploding gasoline under the hood.

but the people crying over the death of the ICE are totally missing the point. It's not a question over electric vs ICE. All cars will be electric within our lifetime. It's a guarantee. What is being overlooked is whether or not you'll be driving your car for much longer.

It's almost guaranteed that robots will soon be driving cars on public roads regularly. As soon as that reaches a tipping point of success, insurance companies will penalize drivers who drive their own car. As soon as that happens, people will have to make the financial decision to save money and have robots drive them or spend more money to drive themselves. They'll pick the robot. As soon as that happens, they'll stop purchasing cars and instead cars will become a service you order on demand. Because _That_ reality is the one that makes the most financial sense. Cars are horrible purchases that spend over 90% of their time losing money sitting idle and taking up valuable real estate.

So be upset about electric motors taking away a hobby. Because shortly after or even simultaneously, you'll be forced out of the drivers seat and have something far more intrusive to be upset about. Being priced/taxed out of driving your own car.

Here, listen to my electric motor as I fire it up

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by Emoto

I don't believe this will happen in the timeframe you suggest. There is too much inexpensive oil being pulled from the ground, and new reserves being discovered for electric to become economically advantageous. The only way electric cars overtake internal combustion is if government forces the issue. For a glimpse of what that looks like, see Paris and the yellow vest people. Just my opinion.

OTOH, if breakthroughs in battery technology make the tech less expensive and electric cars can compete on price with internal combustion, then more people will buy them. Ultimately, the Market will decide.

You're not going to buy them at all is the point. You're going to rent your transport and not care about the car at all, like you dont care about the model of plane you take when you travel. The added cost of batteries is absorbed easily by the higher utilization of all the vehicles since they're all no longer sitting idle and depreciating and taking up space but instead, always moving and doing work when they're not charging.

The bar of profitability / practicality is much higher when you aren't limited to the current way cars are purchased and used. Personal ownership requires cars to be cheap to fit most people's budgets because utilization is a factor in cost. If personal ownership is no longer a thing (and it wont be), then the cost of a car can be much higher and it still would be practical and profitable for the owner if the car is being utilized much more.

I think you're under-estimating how quickly this will all come about. You're thinking in terms of personal expenses when you should be considering fleet costs and an ecosystem where you dont need human drivers to operate that fleet....they can move themselves any hour of the day at a moment's notice without any of the negative "stranger with me in the car" feelings that current taxi's give people. They're already cheap enough. The robots just need to prove that they're just as good as human drivers and for companies to be protected from lawsuits for it to explode into common use.

Judging by the way people drive around here every day, the robots wouldn't have to be very good at driving to be better than the vast majority of human drivers. And I can't wait for them to come and replace them. Even if it means I can't drive my own car, ....driving behind mentally disabled idiots who make turns at impossibly slow speeds or dont accelerate to the speed limit within 10 seconds is infuriating to the point where I'd be happier if the robots drove everyone. At least then, they wouldn't wait until the car in front of them was 5 car lengths away before moving at a damn stop light.

[cellsafemode]

it's a nightmare for people who are good at driving and enjoy it. Unfortunately, that's a minority of the population by far. Most suck at driving and would rather not drive at all.

I just dont see any way it wont happen. Wages haven't increased in step with cost of living. This drives pressure to reduce expenditures. Cars are crazy stupid things to purchase because they lose value, spend most of the time you own them sitting still and doing nothing, and they're big so they need their own land to do that sitting around on that you also have to pay for. There is tremendous pressure to eliminate this cost from your life, especially everyone under the age of 35, who tend to make crap money for their age compared to previous generations. As soon as an option presents itself, it's going to be adopted like wildfire because it centers around money. It will be a brain-dead easy financial choice
1. Save a ton of money and use car services driven by robots to transport you around
2. Spend a ton of money on a car so you can enjoy the privilege of driving yourself.

Add laws that will undoubtedly follow surrounding insurance and safety and i really dont see a way that this future doesn't come to pass...and doesn't come to pass within my lifetime (within the next couple decades). We're not going to force humans to be better drivers (we haven't in the the preceding decades) so you'll not only have the financial pressure but the public safety pressure as well. Nothing i can think of can prevent anything above. It'll be a moral imperative to make human driving illegal or as close to illegal thru high costs as possible.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

Why? It's not like the vehicles assembled in Mexico are junk.

Well, it's just that I try to buy made in the USA when I can. Even if it's a Toyota, I would rather that it be assembled in the US to help support US manufaturing jobs. If I can't find a vehicle that suits my needs that is assembled here (and has a lot of US made content in it), I will buy something else. It's hard to find things that are made in the US, but I try when I can. And in this segment, there are other options that are made here.

It's just that the Blazer would be pretty perfect for my wife when my son gets out of college in a few years. She loves the intial photos we've seen, and it's the perfect size. Not sure what I will do, but I have time to figure it out, so no worries.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Judging by the way people drive around here every day, the robots wouldn't have to be very good at driving to be better than the vast majority of human drivers. And I can't wait for them to come and replace them. Even if it means I can't drive my own car, ....driving behind mentally disabled idiots who make turns at impossibly slow speeds or dont accelerate to the speed limit within 10 seconds is infuriating to the point where I'd be happier if the robots drove everyone. At least then, they wouldn't wait until the car in front of them was 5 car lengths away before moving at a damn stop light.

Man, you should try driving where I live. The roads are windy hilly roads like the tail of the dragon, and everyone is on their phone. They cross the double yellow line with all four wheels like it's no big deal because they are not paying attention. There is absolutely nowhere to go. They litterally paint the white lines of the road on the grass sometimes, that's how little room there is. No such thing as a shoulder.

I saw a kid put all four wheels in the median of interstate 70 (a 70 MPH road), begin to lose control, slow down, regain control, and pull the car back onto the road at about 25 MPH, ALL WHILE STILL ON HIS PHONE!!!!! He was still texting as we slowly passed him on the right! He never stopped looking at his phone!!!

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

I understand and appreciate what you are forecasting, but that sounds like a fricking nightmare of a future. I could see it come to pass the way certain segments of the population are now in many ways. It would absolutely suck. I also think that future is much more practical in cities than less populated areas.

You hit the nail on the head. I think this version of the future will play out in the urban and some in the suburban areas, but not so much in the rural areas. So, I feel it depends on where you live more than anything else (once it comes to pass).

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You're not going to buy them at all is the point. You're going to rent your transport and not care about the car at all, like you dont care about the model of plane you take when you travel. The added cost of batteries is absorbed easily by the higher utilization of all the vehicles since they're all no longer sitting idle and depreciating and taking up space but instead, always moving and doing work when they're not charging.

The bar of profitability / practicality is much higher when you aren't limited to the current way cars are purchased and used. Personal ownership requires cars to be cheap to fit most people's budgets because utilization is a factor in cost. If personal ownership is no longer a thing (and it wont be), then the cost of a car can be much higher and it still would be practical and profitable for the owner if the car is being utilized much more.

I think you're under-estimating how quickly this will all come about. You're thinking in terms of personal expenses when you should be considering fleet costs and an ecosystem where you dont need human drivers to operate that fleet....they can move themselves any hour of the day at a moment's notice without any of the negative "stranger with me in the car" feelings that current taxi's give people. They're already cheap enough. The robots just need to prove that they're just as good as human drivers and for companies to be protected from lawsuits for it to explode into common use.

Judging by the way people drive around here every day, the robots wouldn't have to be very good at driving to be better than the vast majority of human drivers. And I can't wait for them to come and replace them. Even if it means I can't drive my own car, ....driving behind mentally disabled idiots who make turns at impossibly slow speeds or dont accelerate to the speed limit within 10 seconds is infuriating to the point where I'd be happier if the robots drove everyone. At least then, they wouldn't wait until the car in front of them was 5 car lengths away before moving at a damn stop light.

Ah. So we're talking about a future without (much) private ownership of transportation. Well, that would require a huge shift in society, IMO. I won't say it could never happen, but I think it is FAR in the future, well beyond when we're dead and gone. And even then, I have some doubts. But, it is an interesting concept that you have clearly spent time thinking or reading about.

I'll probably just stick to preparing for the zombie apocalypse.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

Confirmed by whom? Even if they were confirmed, GM can pull the plug at any time. Take that new, exclusive 5.5L Turbo V8 that the CT6 was getting. The CT6 will cease production on 5/31/19 so this new highly touted engine will see production for maybe a couple of months, at most. For all we know, the rumors floating around that the 7th gen Camaro is already dead, could be true.

Like it or not, GM is going all in on EV and imo, that doesn't signal good things for our performance cars.

The Caddy 4.2 DOHC TT V8 is far from dead and being built in Bowling Green...hint hint. In fact, the CAD drawings for the C8 Mid-Engine Corvette already show this exact engine architecture in place with low-side mounted turbos instead of the Caddy's Hot-V setup (which could be used in any future Camaro since the Hot-V is front mount design).

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You're not going to buy them at all is the point. You're going to rent your transport and not care about the car at all, like you dont care about the model of plane you take when you travel. The added cost of batteries is absorbed easily by the higher utilization of all the vehicles since they're all no longer sitting idle and depreciating and taking up space but instead, always moving and doing work when they're not charging.

The bar of profitability / practicality is much higher when you aren't limited to the current way cars are purchased and used. Personal ownership requires cars to be cheap to fit most people's budgets because utilization is a factor in cost. If personal ownership is no longer a thing (and it wont be), then the cost of a car can be much higher and it still would be practical and profitable for the owner if the car is being utilized much more.

I think you're under-estimating how quickly this will all come about. You're thinking in terms of personal expenses when you should be considering fleet costs and an ecosystem where you dont need human drivers to operate that fleet....they can move themselves any hour of the day at a moment's notice without any of the negative "stranger with me in the car" feelings that current taxi's give people. They're already cheap enough. The robots just need to prove that they're just as good as human drivers and for companies to be protected from lawsuits for it to explode into common use.

Judging by the way people drive around here every day, the robots wouldn't have to be very good at driving to be better than the vast majority of human drivers. And I can't wait for them to come and replace them. Even if it means I can't drive my own car, ....driving behind mentally disabled idiots who make turns at impossibly slow speeds or dont accelerate to the speed limit within 10 seconds is infuriating to the point where I'd be happier if the robots drove everyone. At least then, they wouldn't wait until the car in front of them was 5 car lengths away before moving at a damn stop light.

A lot of utopian speculation based on the general population relinquishing a ton of freedom surrounding personal travel...

Agreed with urban applications as it makes sense, but on a broad spectrum, this will be contested vehemently in rural areas and those with low populations.