[jamala00]

Originally Posted by laynlo15

Sounds like you should just sell it and move on. Maybe buy a Kia Stinger. Maybe a Mustang. Obviously your never really going to be happy. You'll keep posting how bad GM is and every little thing you dislike about your car, just sell it and let someone else appreciate it.

^^^^ Exactly, my guess is he won't ever be back to this thread.

[ZPirate]

Originally Posted by Clear141

If I could change anything it would be the styling. I bought for the name/heritage and the performance!!! and the clear indication that GM had gone full virtue signaler. I believe most of us think that pre 4th gen our cars had a beautifully aggressive appearance that said F off without actually saying it. They really missed the mark in the decades since. You want to compete with the big 3? Give us something that resembles an American kick ass muscle car instead of something that looks like it came out of Europe or Asia. Hell Corvettes used to be gorgeous, now they look like Italian super cars- no thank you. 99% of people I come in contact with don’t have any idea what I’m driving. Just proves in my opinion why Ford and Dodge outsell Chevy consistently by large margins. My bias is making me tolerate this car’s appearance, not my rational side. I do appreciate certain parts of my car, appearance wise, but I’m no longer blinded by my bias. Chevy has failed its consumer’s and by extension itself. In the meantime I’ll enjoy what I have, reminisce about the past and shed a tear for what could have been. Happy to answer questions and respond to the negatives.

Unfortunately styling is subjective. What some like others may not. For example, some people don't like the 2019 refresh of the Gen6 Camaro, but I do. I like it better than the 2016-18s. What I don't like about the styling of the Gen6 are the small side windows. Those give the car a chop top look, hurt visibility and make the interior seem dark. Does that make me want to get rid of my Camaro? No. The car has many positives.

The Gen6 still has the best chassis of the American muscle cars. It's the sports car of the group. And the 1LE package makes it handle even better. Not to mention it's a great bang for the buck.

I've never had anyone ask me what car my Camaro is. Most people readily recognize it as a Camaro. I do get asked about what a 1LE is.

I agree with you that the C8 now looks (and is priced) like a European exotic. That's what GM apparently wants. It wants the C8 to compete in that market. I've owned a C6, but frankly I'm not willing to spend what a C8 costs on a weekend car.

My guess is that GM basically gave up on the Camaro several years ago. That's why it's not marketing or improving the car. And why it isn't developing a new Camaro. GM would rather concentrate on higher profit trucks, SUVs, and C8s and other developing EVs. Only Ford seems to care about having an ICE Muscle car going forward.

Don't forget that GM has done this before with the Camaro. When it dropped the Camaro after the Gen4 it gave Ford the market. Then later GM decided to build the Gen5 and get back in the Muscle car game. At this point I suspect GM keeps building Camaros because there is still demand (even without any marketing) and the tooling and R & D are paid for.

[22SS1LE]

why did you buy one? Sell it and buy something else
The camaro is the most aggressive looking of the 3. I was going to get a mustang but the front looks very soft and the Dodge they are boring looking.
Pre gen cars looked like crap I think. the 1996-2002 looked like just a boring wedge.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Either the pool of car enthusiasts who enjoy a performance vehicle like the 6th Gen Camaro is shrinking or GM sucks at marketing.

I think it’s a some of both but I believe that unfortunately it’s mainly the former. Vehicles will be appliances soon, with little to no attention paid to the driving experience and the focus solely on getting from point A to B with as little input from the driver as possible.

The market is definitely shrinking. No doubt about that. Coupes and convertibles are rapidly disappearing. New registration data shows that trend clearly. As far as marketing, GM is actually brilliant at marketing…where they want to be. Look at truck marketing. Look at Buick ads. They do a great job when they want to. For Camaro, with the coupe and convertible markets shrinking, spending money on advertising might draw a very few additional buyers from a seriously shrinking market. In other words, zero payback. Money is better spent protecting market share of vehicles that draw 5-digit profits.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ZPirate

Unfortunately styling is subjective. What some like others may not. For example, some people don't like the 2019 refresh of the Gen6 Camaro, but I do. I like it better than the 2016-18s. What I don't like about the styling of the Gen6 are the small side windows. Those give the car a chop top look, hurt visibility and make the interior seem dark. Does that make me want to get rid of my Camaro? No. The car has many positives.

The Gen6 still has the best chassis of the American muscle cars. It's the sports car of the group. And the 1LE package makes it handle even better. Not to mention it's a great bang for the buck.

I've never had anyone ask me what car my Camaro is. Most people readily recognize it as a Camaro. I do get asked about what a 1LE is.

I agree with you that the C8 now looks (and is priced) like a European exotic. That's what GM apparently wants. It wants the C8 to compete in that market. I've owned a C6, but frankly I'm not willing to spend what a C8 costs on a weekend car.

My guess is that GM basically gave up on the Camaro several years ago. That's why it's not marketing or improving the car. And why it isn't developing a new Camaro. GM would rather concentrate on higher profit trucks, SUVs, and C8s and other developing EVs. Only Ford seems to care about having an ICE Muscle car going forward.

Don't forget that GM has done this before with the Camaro. When it dropped the Camaro after the Gen4 it gave Ford the market. Then later GM decided to build the Gen5 and get back in the Muscle car game. At this point I suspect GM keeps building Camaros because there is still demand (even without any marketing) and the tooling and R & D are paid for.

I’ll try to add a little perspective to what you’re saying here.

GM did hand market share to Ford after the drop of Gen 4. But it wasn’t for lack of trying. Gen 4 had to be ended because the F-body platform was not capable of meeting CAFE and safety requirements that were being rolled out at the time. GM tried super hard to put Camaro on a different architecture but there simply wasn’t anything usable available at the time.

For the first part of this time period I led the Powertrain Planning department and we were responsible for working with Engineering to match powertrains to vehicles. Later I was part of the Portfolio Planning group that made the business cases to place specific vehicle programs on appropriate architectures, so in both cases I was right in the middle working with people focused on trying to revive Camaro. Bringing it back on Zeta platform was pretty much a moon shot led by Bob Lutz, Ed Welburn, and Tom Stephens (VP of Powertrain). Ed had his 1st Gen parked in the GM Design studios and gave his team direction to use it as inspiration to design 5th Gen.

GM was working hard on development of a Gen 7 right up until the strategic shift to all EV for passenger cars. I had left GM by this point in time but was still in touch with people familiar with the program, some of whom are active in this forum. The decline in sedans, coupes and convertibles combined with the move to EV effectively cut the lifeline for Camaro and a whole bunch of other cars. Most of them, including Camaro, are likely to come back in EV form eventually.

(me and Ed Welburn at an Automotive Hall of Fame event)

[Cmax]

The muscle car performance of Gen6 has no peers….at the top.
The handling in turns is far beyond the muscle car peers.
To me, the muscle car styling is top notch as well, but my only critique is the rear wing…..I would rather have a spoiler throwback to Gen1. Maybe not quite so bulky though….
I would get an aftermarket rear spoiler, but I want to retain the stock for various reasons.

[Realist]

I personally think GM is terrible at marketing. If you have a decent truck product it will sell with limited marketing. With Covid and supply chain issues, they could have cut marketing costs in half for the past 3 years and still sold the same number of vehicles at the same profits. Let the car mags and YouTuber promote, all ya gotta do is supply the vehicles. Now Dodge I would say is good at marketing. Just look at all GM commercials, basically EV focused for the past 2 years and new vehicle announcements but none in the showrooms. Vette and pickups oh and maybe the low end EV. I like the style of many GMs but I feel they are leading from behind. Lots of products planned which could mean lots of roll out issues, delays and a workforce resistant to change that some manufacturers don’t have to deal with. With all the employees and vendors past and present, they do have a near automatic demand for their limited short supply EV’s and other products. Just my opinion of course.

[90503]

In hindsight, I think the true picture with the Camaro will come into view once they are gone with the wind and that likely isn't too far off...

The high-end muscle cars of the '60s and early '70s were all disparaged and unpopular right around the time they ended. No one really believed it would happen but it did. Who wouldn't love to go back in time and snatch up a few Hemi Cudas or any number of other classic muscle cars?

Now is the time to do the same with the hi-end, hi-optioned Camaros. Once they quit making them, it's game on. Might take a while, but not that long, before the miracle of the modern muscle cars and their styling is fully appreciated.

Kudos to all who made the 5th and 6th Gens possible. As much as they are criticized, they will eventually be looked back on as the best of them all. My $.02

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

In hindsight, I think the true picture with the Camaro will come into view once they are gone with the wind and that likely isn't too far off...

The high-end muscle cars of the '60s and early '70s were all disparaged and unpopular right around the time they ended. No one really believed it would happen but it did. Who wouldn't love to go back in time and snatch up a few Hemi Cudas or any number of other classic muscle cars?

Now is the time to do the same with the hi-end, hi-optioned Camaros. Once they quit making them, it's game on. Might take a while, but not that long, before the miracle of the modern muscle cars and their styling is fully appreciated.

Kudos to all who made the 5th and 6th Gens possible. As much as they are criticized, they will eventually be looked back on as the best of them all. My $.02

In the early 2000’s in the midst of the financial crisis, you couldn’t give away large pickups. Now high end large pickups sell for $70-90k, even more for specialty versions. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same becomes true of the high horsepower performance cars of today.

[ZPirate]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’ll try to add a little perspective to what you’re saying here.

GM did hand market share to Ford after the drop of Gen 4. But it wasn’t for lack of trying. Gen 4 had to be ended because the F-body platform was not capable of meeting CAFE and safety requirements that were being rolled out at the time. GM tried super hard to put Camaro on a different architecture but there simply wasn’t anything usable available at the time.

For the first part of this time period I led the Powertrain Planning department and we were responsible for working with Engineering to match powertrains to vehicles. Later I was part of the Portfolio Planning group that made the business cases to place specific vehicle programs on appropriate architectures, so in both cases I was right in the middle working with people focused on trying to revive Camaro. Bringing it back on Zeta platform was pretty much a moon shot led by Bob Lutz, Ed Welburn, and Tom Stephens (VP of Powertrain). Ed had his 1st Gen parked in the GM Design studios and gave his team direction to use it as inspiration to design 5th Gen.

GM was working hard on development of a Gen 7 right up until the strategic shift to all EV for passenger cars. I had left GM by this point in time but was still in touch with people familiar with the program, some of whom are active in this forum. The decline in sedans, coupes and convertibles combined with the move to EV effectively cut the lifeline for Camaro and a whole bunch of other cars. Most of them, including Camaro, are likely to come back in EV form eventually.

(me and Ed Welburn at an Automotive Hall of Fame event)

Thanks for your insight Jim. I guess GM wasn't willing to spend money to develop a new platform at the time the Gen4 went away. I'm glad it decided to give it another try with the Gen5 car. Otherwise we likely wouldn't have the Gen6.

I still think it has a lot to do with sales and profitability. Trucks, SUVs and EVs are were the money is. That's why GM decided not to continue with a Gen7. You call it a strategic shift, but I'd say its all about the numbers.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ZPirate

Thanks for your insight Jim. I guess GM wasn't willing to spend money to develop a new platform at the time the Gen4 went away. I'm glad it decided to give it another try with the Gen5 car. Otherwise we likely wouldn't have the Gen6.

I still think it has a lot to do with sales and profitability. Trucks, SUVs and EVs are were the money is. That's why GM decided not to continue with a Gen7. You call it a strategic shift, but I'd say its all about the numbers.

Yeah. New platforms cost billion$. You need to be able to get enough volume off of the platform to justify the cost. Except for Corvette. Corvette can cover the cost by staying on the same platform with gradual improvements over a longer timespan. When F-body was in full swing, Camaro and Firebird volume was enough to cover the costs. With no Pontiac, that left just Camaro. Not enough volume for a unique platform. Sigma (CTS, STS, SRX) was a Cadillac platform and they weren’t in the mood to share it. Plus there were a number of additional programs targeted to go on Sigma, so Camaro was way down the list. The first time Zeta was considered it didn’t work because the only module for it was in Australia. There is a cap on volume that could be imported from Australia. GTO / Chevy SS volume worked but it was too low for what Camaro needed. So the idea of duplicating the platform in Oshawa got support and that’s where 5th Gen came in. By the time Alpha came along, different leadership in Cadillac that also realized Camaro volume would help spread the cost of the platform to make a better business case for ATS / CTS.

Strategic shifts are most often about the numbers.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by Clear141

If I could change anything it would be the styling. I bought for the name/heritage and the performance!!! and the clear indication that GM had gone full virtue signaler. I believe most of us think that pre 4th gen our cars had a beautifully aggressive appearance that said F off without actually saying it. They really missed the mark in the decades since. You want to compete with the big 3? Give us something that resembles an American kick ass muscle car instead of something that looks like it came out of Europe or Asia. Hell Corvettes used to be gorgeous, now they look like Italian super cars- no thank you. 99% of people I come in contact with don’t have any idea what I’m driving. Just proves in my opinion why Ford and Dodge outsell Chevy consistently by large margins. My bias is making me tolerate this car’s appearance, not my rational side. I do appreciate certain parts of my car, appearance wise, but I’m no longer blinded by my bias. Chevy has failed its consumer’s and by extension itself. In the meantime I’ll enjoy what I have, reminisce about the past and shed a tear for what could have been. Happy to answer questions and respond to the negatives.

The C8 Corvettes look like sh!t, and even sound like sh!t, but the Camaros look pretty good. Nice coke bottle fuselage. 16-18 grills and tail lamps look better than the 19 plus.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The great thing about the Camaro is it's moved on past the terrible muscle car genre, to something that actually handles and performs (read: it turns!) in places other than a straight line. Don't go backwards.

What exactly was terrible about muscle cars?

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by PizzzzzaForPresident

Have you driven any of those other cars you're talking about? The Camaro isn't being outsold because of the styling. It's the best sports car of the three, but the factors that make it a good sports car also make it the least practical and least comfortable for daily driving of the three. It has the worst visibility by far, the least storage, the most cramped interior and the least forgiving ride. Most people don't want a sports car. They want a sporty looking car but only kinda sporty driving car. That ain't the Camaro. The Challenger is a la-z-boy on wheels and the Mustang is its slimmer cousin. It's the same reason the Corvette sells well and the Viper bombed. Most people want the appearance of sporty with none of the baggage that comes along with actually being a sports car. It's also why Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and Porsche all have SUVs.

For what it's worth, I love the 6th gen's styling, especially the '16-18 SS models. I couldn't care less about the generations between the 1st and 6th.

Actually it bombed just like the Challenger was bombing until Dodge came out with a very aggressive ad campaign. The Challenger was bombing so bad they were planning to discontinue it.