[Provoste]

Originally Posted by S2K+1LE

They've made them too safe, starting with the 996. They're too easy to drive, too accessible (see: gold chain set) and there are too many special edition models collecting headlines to be taken seriously. The real issue I have, though; is with the ease of use. The electronics have just made everything too easy, anyone can get in one and go fast and that just isn't very special anymore.



I think we both know the ratio is about 20:1 there with a strong favor going towards those who store them. That's why Porsche Scottsdale has a 996 GT3 RS 4.0 for $500K...



They brought back the manual trans... with a whole host of driver aids and computer trickery (rear wheel steering, etc) to make them incredibly easy to drive fast and remove the involvement.



Well, I predict we won't see more than one generation of NA (non-electric) 911s but that is a nice side effect isn't it? Except it's kind of more of an excuse these days, and we can see where the focus has gone... but I can't begrudge them for staying relevant in a changing market. It doesn't change the fact that I prefer the involvement of the 993 over the much safer and more muted water cooled cars even as capable as they are.

Have you actually driven a 996 or 997 in anger on track with stablity control off? They dance around like an air cooled car... seriously.

Regarding Porshce produceing safer/more muted/full of electronics cars- yeah, I expect Porsche to be on the cutting edge of technology. Furthermore, I don't have a problem with most of it (I agree with you on rear steering though). My afinity for the air-cooled cars (and my 964 specifically) isn't that it is hard to drive, therefore I derive pleasure from wheeling it well. It is the depth of driver involvement, communication and response of the drivetrain and chassis. This is where I'd say Porsche is still producing Porsches. There is a depth of involvment in modern Porsches (911 specifically) that keeps devout air-cooled guys interested in them for a reason.

Also, you keep referring back to the 993... lots of air cooled guys said similar statements about Porsche making more "muted" 911's when Porsche changed from a trailing arm rear suspension to a multilink for the 993 in 1995. The trailing arm rear arm had been on the cars since 1965. The addition of the multilink suspension brought complexity and cost, but it added a ton of stablity to the chassis...

[NickyRacerBoy]

1st time tracking 991.1 GT3 RS. middle end of vid is best...
Far from pushing it hard but fun though! Now dedicated 2017 Camaro 1LE...now that gets pushed!

[MATTY-1LE]

Originally Posted by NickyRacerBoy

1st time tracking 991.1 GT3 RS. middle end of vid is best...
Far from pushing it hard but fun though! Now dedicated 2017 Camaro 1LE...now that gets pushed!

Good runs. I like how you're like screw it let me pass everyone up lol. Going to have to start calling you Niki Lauda for now on

[Srt-cuatro]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Not to hijack this thread any further but heres a handy chart right from EPA website. It is interesting that govs, politicians, activists and public opionion seem to focus on proverbial dog's tail: transportation. Thats not just cars, but also trains, planes, ships, etc. While somewhat conveniently ignoring the other 86% of the issue.

Ok: now back to Porsches

I consider myself an environmentalist, and I love performance cars. I try to eat less beef, I take the train to work, I don't use crazy amounts of electricity, and I try to recycle. I think people who love sports cars do not produce as much emissions as people who don't.

Back to the main topic ...
My favorite Pcar is the new "regular" GT3 with a manual transmission. Which is why I got a SS 1LE. They are very similar.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Srt-cuatro

I consider myself an environmentalist, and I love performance cars. I try to eat less beef, I take the train to work, I don't use crazy amounts of electricity, and I try to recycle. I think people who love sports cars do not produce as much emissions as people who don't.

Back to the main topic ...
My favorite Pcar is the new "regular" GT3 with a manual transmission. Which is why I got a SS 1LE. They are very similar.

Have you driven the regular GT3? Is it really that close to the SS 1LE?

[MATTY-1LE]

the manual porsche gt3, yes this is also my dream car at the moment. flawless

[avalanche011]

Would love to hear your version and comparisons between the SS 1LE and the GT3

Certainly, I just got my 1LE a few days ago so I haven't had the chance to put it through its paces extensively. I'll report back once I had some more time with it.

From my limited experience so far, they are very different cars made for similar purpose. Yes they both provide great day to day drivability for the performance. However, their character can't be more different.

As far as this whole debate on 991 GT3s. I gotta say that my car still impresses me everytime I drive it. Do I feel that the PDK took away from the experience? No, I feel its different and satisfies me in different ways. On paper the GT3 shouldn't be THAT fast, but it is. That in itself only adds to the experience. Would I take a 991 manual GT3 over my own? Nope. Given the chance to switch to a 991.2 GT3, I'll go PDK again. Do I miss a manual? Yes, thats why I got the 1LE. So can enjoy all the experiences I suppose.

[NickyRacerBoy]

Originally Posted by MATTY-1LE

Good runs. I like how you're like screw it let me pass everyone up lol. Going to have to start calling you Niki Lauda for now on

advance group...LOL out there...huh.......
seriously though we are out to have fun

[Srt-cuatro]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

Have you driven the regular GT3? Is it really that close to the SS 1LE?

I have not. I based my opinion on reviews. I use to love the GT3 RS, but now it's just seems like a track car. I've always liked cars that are fun on the street and this is how the new GT3 with a manual transmission is described.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by TRZ06

That is the thing that people never seem to grasp. There is no perfect energy source.

Everything that requires work (energy) will cost money & endanger the planet in one form or another. All we are doing is shifting the problem to a different sector.

This is why tree huggers and enviromentalists drive me crazy. What are all these batteries going to do to the planet in 30 - 50 years. Electric energy costs are just as, if not more expensive then fossil fuels.

In 50 years from now there will be a new generation of enviromentalists boycotting electric vehicles.

I have to disagree with you there. I understand the argument that mining for rare minerals and metals to produce batteries in itself releases pollutants. I also understand that vast majority of our electricity comes from coal, a fossil fuel. However, the latter is driven by the coal industry itself, lobbyists, and bureaucracy. Electricity is a renewable resource that can be produced by wind, water and solar power, which is a tremendous advantage over fossil fuels. Not to mention pollutants when burning those fossil fuels. And battery technology is improving at such a rapid pace, that while there's still a concern over how green they really are, over the life span of that battery the footprint is far far smaller than on a combustion vehicle. I think United States and Europe are already trending in the direction of electrification for vehicular transport. It's a slow moving trend, but it's certainly happening. There are some major hurdles to overcome however before these vehicles become really main stream, specifically tied to three things:

1. Charging network
2. Speed of charging
3. Cost (must be comparable to internal combustion cars)

When we hit those three the electric car market will take off. Now, I'm not saying internal combustion will ever go away. As long as there are enthusiasts willing to buy those vehicles they will be sold.

[aai]

down here at VIR waiting for the big show. GT3 Cup rolling out, and coincidently my two favorites parked beside each other. One of each please!

[mjk3888]

Any real car guy who isn't biased likely has a healthy respect for all Porsches. They are amazingly engineered!

[Atlas24601]

I love trolling Porsche fanboys. Does that count?

[JamesNoBrakes]

Who doesn't love Porsches?

That said, I think they are starting to get strained under the pressure from manufacturer's using better chassis. The rear engine chassis will never be as optimal as mid or even the front-engine behind the front axle. For Porsche to keep on top of the game, they have to go to further lengths, using more exotic developments and technology, like rear wheel steering, hollow CF swaybars, and so on. Of course, once the other manufacturers adopt this or better, Porsche is back to square one. The main fix seems to always just be make the 911 even wider, but IMO, it's starting to get a little ridiculous. Porsche has even seen the writing on the wall with the 911 RSR, going to mid-engine. To this extent, I think they should take the 718 chassis, drop a 911-body on it, and call it good.

It was only a matter of time before big companies with large amounts of engineering and design capability caught up and surpassed Porsche. It'll take exponentially more and more resources going forward to keep the rear-engine design and IMO, it's reaching the end. Camaros were bearing Porsche GT3s, Porsche dropped the new GT2, then Lamborghini beats them, and now the new mid-engine corvette is about to drop. Think about this for a little bit and let it set in. $70K cars are beating a $200K+ Porsche.

Then there's the capitalizing on the mommy-SUV market with their Cayanne and Macan models. I'll never understand getting an SUV that sucks at off-road and utility.

Ok, so my rant is over, I think they are generally beautiful cars and Porsche designs some great dynamics into them. I did consider picking up a 911 or Cayman instead of the 2SS 1LE, but when I thought about it hard, the 2SS 1LE seemed to be a far better car, unless a unicorn 911 was found. I had some other requirements that a 911 couldn't match, but I have thought about getting someone's old boxster and converting it for autocross.