02-22-2020, 04:45 PM | #85 | |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Thanks for clarifying and give more details on the performance longevity. I wonder how they stack up to the SC3R’s in terms of performance...Not longevity bust just pure grip and lap time?) I didn’t know you could legally use these tires on the street?
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 02-22-2020 at 08:37 PM. |
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02-22-2020, 09:17 PM | #86 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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02-22-2020, 09:29 PM | #87 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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I would be ok driving them short distance to/from, but not any track road trips further away. I got caught in a passing shower on a secondary highway once on used up NT01s and almost ended up in a ditch a few times. Plus made everyone following me totally furious i am sure: "here's a guy in a Vette and he can't bloody drive!". Lol! |
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02-22-2020, 09:39 PM | #88 | |
Drives: '19 RivrsdBlu 1LE ('17 1LE HB sold) Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,686
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https://www.toyotires.com/tire/patte...ires-proxes-rr Also why don't you like the R888Rs? They're great tires if you ask me and should be the longest lasting out of the bunch. Yes they're about 1.5-2 seconds behind the RRs or even maybe even 3 seconds compared to R7s etc ..but they're great for mixed street/track use, for those who want longevity with still a bit more grip than RE71R or NT01, it's a great alternative IMO. If the performance of the R888Rs are very similar to OEM SS 1LE tires, that still doesn't mean they're equal in performance but that's probably because we cannot fully utilize the added grip (because we don't have the suspension or sway bar to eliminate the body roll caused by the added grip). Here's hoping, my sway bars will take care of that body roll I previously experienced with more aggressive tires. I haven't tried the SC3Rs but from what I can tell they're pretty close to Cup 2 when they provide ultimate grip (a couple laps maybe) and/or Toyo RR, Trofeo Rs.. Nasa also puts them in the same classification From fastest the slowest the ultimate performance of the tires can be listed as this: R7s >Z214-R1>TD221- RR-Cup2-Trofeo R-SC3R (RRs and SC3Rs should be more consistent throughout the session) > Nankang AR1>R888R>NT01-RE71R-R888 (old compound)> RS4-Goodyear Supercars (SS 1LE tires) Longevity and resistance to HCs is another important thing of course . It really all comes down to your expectations and track experience I believe. I don't think with the stock suspension setup (on the SS1LE) we can see the full benefits of the extra grip but that shouldn't be an issue for ZLE since it's already tuned up for much grippy tires
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02-22-2020, 10:01 PM | #89 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Thanks for posting the vid, always fun to watch! Ya, i kinda figured your bud was not just an average amateur hpde guy and hence my comment that he could really wheel the car. That was quite obvious rather quickly. And yes, agree with your GT2 comparos now especially given regular cup2 vs RR. A no brainer. I would say even top pros really work to nail a new venue. Half a day will hardly make them competitive. They usually spend days on sims, do detailed track walks, take notes, get intel, then log as many hrs as they can (even if not in an actual race car). But, of course, they will become faster much quicker than an average amateur - zero question. One reason why is that they are already one with a car and can adjust their driving by what the car is telling them (to max the pace). An average amateur hardly understands that a car is actually trying to tell them something. And frankly most dont log sufficient seat time to learn the "language" to communicate with the car. But enough about that as for us it is mostly about having bags of fun! PS Too bad RRs dont make 305/30/19. A real pity! PSS +1 your last comment! |
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02-22-2020, 10:18 PM | #90 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
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Posts: 5,091
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I also disagree that an SS (or ZL1) doesn't respond well to sticky tires. Take a look at fastest laps thread. Many folks have zero suspension mods and successfully run dot and even full slicks on otherwise stock cars. And id say some of the laptimes are stunning. Lastly, if ya think softly sprung car cant take advantage of grippy tires, watch Nascar CUP race on a road course. Cheers! |
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02-22-2020, 11:04 PM | #91 | |
Drives: '19 RivrsdBlu 1LE ('17 1LE HB sold) Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,686
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One would think it would add some oversteer but that wasn't the case for them. My friend with the GS is a bit faster than all of us and so his driving style also requires some corrections as he pushes the car to its very limits. At the ridge (same day) GS was still faster than the Z07 by about 1 second.The Z07 driver ,however, is smoother and much more seat time at the ORP so his 1:48 at there is very very competitive and much faster than the GS at the moment. We are all planning to go to the ORP (Viper, Z07, GS and my SS 1LE with all of us running Toyo RR tires) it would be a nice opportunity to get tons of data points I agree with pro driver comments btw
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02-22-2020, 11:25 PM | #92 | |
Drives: '19 RivrsdBlu 1LE ('17 1LE HB sold) Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,686
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Also, I should've mentioned that the ones with dashes between are the same category, similar "ultimate" lap time tires..my bad (I say ultimate because their characteristics and longevity may differ) so just ignore the order of them ..you may just use the greater sign as a reference. Within the same group (NASA point classification) they should be within few tenths to each other since the difference between RR and R7 is already about 1-1.5 seconds ...and the difference between RRs and R888Rs are maybe another 1-1.5 seconds, the margins are very tight between them so they're not cumulative ..in other words R7s are not a whole 5-6 seconds faster than say R888Rs or NT01s, they overlap each other . Like I said I have no first hand experience with the SC3R tires but I am willing to test them some time, the only thing that keeps me getting a 19" ZLE spec set is, those are the only available tires that makes sense to me for size, performance, price.. I don't see any good option with say 315 or 325/30/19 "..on 18" sizes however there are tons of options for 295/315/30/18 sizes. Since they introduced the SC3Rs as direct competitors of Cup2s and magazines and some online forums repeat the same I figured they would fall somewhere between R888R and R7s just like the RR, TD221, Cup2s, Trofero Rs..maybe marginally faster than others in the group I don't know. Btw, the lap times will be faster but we cannot make sure if it's the tire compound only, unless they're used on the very same wheels and tire sizes, since most of the time we opt for smaller, lighter wheels .they also greatly affect the overall lap time even with that my lap times were only about 2 seconds faster with. For instance I did a better lap time with both used slicks and Trofeo Rs but car's feel sucked .. I knew that it was because of the added grip and body roll, I am surprised you never experienced that. Ryephelie for instance improved his lap times after switching to sway bars when he started using those SC3Rs which makes sense that alone tells me our softer setup is specifically designed to work with OEM tires and it needs more sway/spring when we add more tire. It was the case for any other car, I think Camaro is no different.
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02-23-2020, 04:01 AM | #93 |
Drives: Track prepped 2018 Camaro ZL1 (a10) Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 1,384
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Thanks Cem, I’m not sure what Toyo site I was looking at! Must have been the Canadian version, and this is the American version, but it looks like I’d still have to find a distributor to get these since it doesn’t look like they sell directly from this website. Know anyone?
The instructors at my local track say the Trofeo R is 1.5 seconds faster per lap than the Cup 2; that’s on a tight technical track that takes about 1:20 to 1:30 to complete per lap. I’d be surprised if the SCR3 isnt faster than the cup 2 as well with grip level more like the Trofeo R. I just installed YYZ performance springs in my car to help with the body roll but haven’t touched the sway bars yet. Likely going to try those Spherical bushings for the radius bars, I’m surprised no one else has yet!
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2018 ZL1; Mag 2650 and 2 inch LT Headers , every SPL suspension upgrade, MCS 2 way coilovers, sway bars, square SC3R 325's all the way around, and multiple brake cooling upgrades
Last edited by GunMetalGrey; 02-23-2020 at 04:14 AM. |
02-23-2020, 10:23 AM | #94 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Can't recall exact details of Ryephile's set up, but suspect it had much to do with the car's balance and tire wear, as the aftermarket wheels have different offsets. But wont speculate here. 2 seconds per average lap is a terrific result. Dont forget GM put Trofeos on Gen5 Z28 and they were largely responsible for its fantastic pace. Yet Gen6 SS 1LE beat it at Laguna on G3s and less power... As far as stock SS 1LE (or ZL1) suspension and sticky tires...there is plenty of recorded evidence of the fact that nothing else has to be changed to gain tons of pace as long as the driver can push the car to its new (much higher) limits. Provoste is the best example of that, but there are plenty of others running DOT slicks with great results on stock cars. Sure, smaller wheels will reduce the weight a bit and lower thr gearing, but largely it is the rubber that makes the difference where it counts: in the corners... I do have experience running sticky tires on my c5z and when i went with stiffer sways my outside front tire got pulvarized in a day as weight transfer was occuring way too quickly. On advice of my mechanic (a Grand Am champion with a record 37 wins, who was sponsored by GM), i went back to softer sways and everything was peachy. Many race cars are set up for softer compliance, yet they all run uber slicks. Speaking of sways and springs: your C7 buds...you said they run stock cars. Do they? Or did they mod their suspensions to run R7 and RR? Cheers! |
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02-23-2020, 10:49 AM | #95 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Fyi there is zero evidence that yyz springs help with pace on a track and I recall somebody posting a test result here that suggested to the contrary and they swapped them out. Apart from the sways to fine tune balance (such as with different wheel offsets), switching up a single suspension component is not a good idea, as they are all calibrated to work in concert. When serious folks mod suspensions they buy springs AND dampers that are designed to work together, as the latter's job is to control the former. Folks that just lower the cars, do so mostly for cars and coffee visual effect. That's perfectly fine for the street, but not track, were balance is key. Lastly, given you have 5 (or so?) track days behind your belt, please trust me (and please dont get offended) it really is way too early to be messing with one of the best platforms ever engineered (bar none). No matter what tires you run, you have one of the best handling cars ever produced. Spend your money on seat time and coaching. It will produce the biggest gains in your pace. Guaranteed. Cheers! |
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02-23-2020, 03:08 PM | #96 | |
Drives: 2020 SS 1LE (previous: 2017 SS 1LE) Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada, eh!
Posts: 5,091
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Here's a 6min vid from best pros, describing how suspension works in a nutshell.
They have a great YouTube channel and ive been subscribing for years: highly recommended. They also have other, more indepth vids on the subject, should you desire to study it further. Note their comments about all the components needing to work together. With your new springs you'll be changing not only the rates, but also balance F vs R, including ride height and possibly rake. This will have a direct effect on the car's balance. In addition, the effectiveness of your excellent MRC shocks, which have been developed for specific spring rates and ride height will certainly be affected as well. As i said earlier, it is a bad idea to switch up either springs, or shocks in isolation and that's why any top shelf racing shop sells them as sets, specifically designed to work together. Of course, adjustable shocks are yet another choice, albeit one has to be schooled in what such adjustments do for both bump and rebound functions and at either end of the car - to dial them up right. Books have been written on this complex subject by highly accomplished crew chiefs. Lastly, note the very last comments in the vid re rubber stops. Anyhow, here's the link. Cheers! |
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02-23-2020, 05:53 PM | #97 | |
Drives: '19 RivrsdBlu 1LE ('17 1LE HB sold) Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,686
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https://trackdaytire.com/product/toyo-proxes-rr/ Speaking of Cup2 vs G3R tires lap times, it tells me something is off. 1.5 seconds on a short track like that is huge and it would put them in RR or Z214 league which I doubt. Keep in mind I was referring to ultimate lap time not average lap time. Cup2s have pretty steep performance curve when they reach the optimal temps you have 2 or so laps to put it down the PB and then the performance falls. That's the reason why in magazine tests it's not an issue, they can easily put the good performance metrics and lap times since they typically do a couple hot laps but for normal track use, real world conditions they/re not desirable. Also, Cup 2 tires are about 1.5 seconds faster than the previous cup tires. Additional 2 seconds on top of that would put them in R6, Z214s territory which I highly doubt .Maybe those tires didn't work well for the given setup and conditions or they're already HC'd out? Some good info for NASA Time Trial Class Rules and tire pointing system: https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393436
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02-23-2020, 06:04 PM | #98 | |
Drives: '19 RivrsdBlu 1LE ('17 1LE HB sold) Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,686
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I am surprised the fact that you experienced outside front tire wear after the sway bar install. The whole purpose of sway bar install is to eliminate that outer wear caused by the body roll and to defeat the slower weight transfer. Maybe with the amount of confidence (more flat feel) you ended up driving harder? or somehow your alignment changed during that (not enough camber or whacked toe)? I am pretty sure something was not right. Sway bars are more of a necessity on regular Z51 cars as they don't have stiffer suspension. My friend who switched to sway bars and LG coils ended up shaving his lap times by 6 seconds when had a Z51 (before the Z06 Z07)!! that's a lot and his outer tire wear definitely improved since less roll on them. I have to add though that huge lap time difference also happened since he increased the front tire size to 315 feom 245 and he replaced the leaf suspensions with LG coils.. the effect would be much smaller on our cars of course. With the 315s his car also felt like a boat haha Take a look at this photo , the only difference is LG sways Ryephile also mentions that his lap times improved but he didn't like the G3Rs as much .. take a look at below: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=125 and https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=139 Like I said, better lap times don't always translate to better car feel. Gearing and rotational mass changes greatly improve the trap speeds and overall acceleration that also shaves seconds
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Last edited by glamcem; 02-23-2020 at 06:35 PM. |
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