[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Yeah. I felt that he was carrying on with the debate he had earlier with you.

While I feel like Frdo failed with the entire S550 lineup, I'll also say that perhaps they were just not prepared for how amazing the 6th Gen Camaro was gonna be. Even the GT500 is a disappointment which is a shame. Not a disappointment in itself but definitely a disappointment when the ZL1 is next to it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ford is no threat to GM anymore. Not in performance. Not when a brand new $94K 760 HP GT500 that was 6 years in the making is getting tossed by $70K 650 ZL1 thats been around untouched for 3 years. The Mustang's competition is 370Zs and WRXs now.

I honestly feel that this generation of Chevy Performance engineering will be remembered amongst the greats in GM’s history. The level of value and the performance achieved will be legendary.

Tadge Juechter, Al Oppenheiser, Aaron Link, Ed Piatek, Jim Mero, Harlan Charles, Jordan Lee (Small Block V8 Chief Engineer), Larry Nitz (Transmission Exec. Chief Engineer)

...with the support of now GM President, Mark Reuss who’s roots stem form having created and led the GM Performance Division.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I honestly feel that this generation of Chevy Performance engineering will be remembered amongst the greats in GM’s history. The level of value and the performance achieved will be legendary.

Tadge Juechter, Al Oppenheiser, Aaron Link, etc. ...with the support of now GM President, Mark Reuses, who’s roots stem having created and led the GM Performance Division. ...and a whole bunch more that we don’t know the names of.

Ed Piatek, Jim Mero, Harlan Charles, Jordan Lee (Small Block V8 Chief Engineer), Larry Nitz (Transmission Exec. Chief Engineer)

[oldman]

Smokie Yunick for the win.. I always loved his creative cheating... Zora Duntov... the god father of the C8. The 097 cam used to sing "Zora Arcus Duntov" when it was running right. Just like the bell thing on "The Polar Express"... I've heard it many times Zora..Zora... Zora. You had to be there to really know and modern science just can comprehend the magic of the time.

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...lock-camshaft/

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Ed Piatek, Jim Mero, Harlan Charles, Jordan Lee (Small Block V8 Chief Engineer), Larry Nitz (Transmission Exec. Chief Engineer)

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I honestly feel that this generation of Chevy Performance engineering will be remembered amongst the greats in GM’s history. The level of value and the performance achieved will be legendary.

Tadge Juechter, Al Oppenheiser, Aaron Link, Ed Piatek, Jim Mero, Harlan Charles, Jordan Lee (Small Block V8 Chief Engineer), Larry Nitz (Transmission Exec. Chief Engineer)

...with the support of now GM President, Mark Reuss who’s roots stem form having created and led the GM Performance Division.

Except the Mustang guys will still be complaining about how they can't see and how cramped it is and how rough it is on their sensitive butts. So they bought a GT for $24K instead...and it snapped an axle and overheated.

[GuywithL86]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Or rather, GM started from the ZL1 and worked down. They built the SS with the capability to handle the power and cornering of the ZL1 and then gave it the LT1 engine. As you go down the line not one Camaro is overwhelmed or manhandled by the engine. The Mustangs tho, you'd think Frdo went the opposite way. They started with the GT and then tried adding bits and pieces here and there as a bandaid. Which is why the GT500 has the issues it has. Even down to the chassis the Camaros are built to handle ZL1 power levels and higher. The GTs can barely get Coyote level power down effectively.

Which is why the SS is the most boring 450hp car ever and the mustang is a riot.

For a race track I’ll take an underpowered car
For the street, give me an overpowered car

Nothing more fun than a car that makes more power than it should.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Don't forget the eLSD benefits and the 1LE brakes. SS, as you described without these, will not be able to stay with 1LE, especially as the laps pile up, SS brakes will go off long before 1LE barking becomes an issue, if it ever does for 1LE driver. Not sure about you but I make up loads of distance under braking with my SS 1LE on OEM brakes including pads.

I didn't forget the elsd, that's an obvious 1le exclusive advantage that I think most are aware of and dont have to mention.

I didnt mention the brakes because if im not mistaken, a regualr ss can get optioned with 6 piston fronts and 4 piston rears. Don't know if it comea with the same pads and rotors though.

I was just getting at the fact that a regular ss is pretty capable as well.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

See the little " box next to the quote? Click that for all the people you want to multi-quote then just click quote on the last person you are quoting and it will pull them all in.
I'll trust you on the 1LE feeling that much stiffer as I've never driven one personally. But how much stiffer are the springs? Probably not much 10-20%? So the MRC is just tuned slightly different too is my thought. I just know my car is no slouch on the track.

Idk how much stiffer, just that its noticeably stiffer. I know that your car is plenty capable on track, just pointing out that observation between the two cars suspension in stock form.

Also, I thought GTs didnt get line lock till 2018.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm sure that if I said this then the three brothers troll would be in here talking trash. Lol. But you are exsctly right. As far as I'm concerned the PP1 is just a GT with an emblem and ain't got shit else.

Pp1 is what a gt should be imo. The base gt is a stripper car.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Agree with all of this except you don't understand the tires. You cannot compare the RunCraps to a MPSC2 or a G3. Throw the G3s on the SS and I bet it knocks off 2 seconds on Streets of Willow. While the MPSC2s absolutely give a hero lap, their 100th lap will be faster than the runcraps 1st lap, especially with the huge size difference...


The dreamers sell cars though clearly. Look at all the V6 and RT Challenger owners that drool over Hellcats, Redeyes, and Demons oh my!


Neither has he, it's ok


The GT500 lost that time because the tires, as I said so long ago once again and it's proven in the video these guys just posted.


I hate that so many even Camaro owners as you pointed out, don't understand that the regular SS is track ready. They think it's basically what the new LT1 is I guess.

You must have missed the part where they said heavier cars always drop off more and mentioned the GT500 is 1000lbs heavier than the Porsche. Which I've also pointed out numerous times that is why it fell off more on the same tires. Camissa even went on saying that the power wasn't falling off and they checked the data.

Assuming it'll shave 2 seconds is just an assumption, I bet it'll shave off time but 2 seconds on streets or willow is a lot. They only shaved 1 second off a car with lower and handling kit on a 2 minute course.

The gt500 absolute lost time because of the tires deteriorating quickly, but they deteriorated so quickly compared to the Porsche because of its own fat ass lol.

Agreed on many chevy guys and Ford guys not knowing that an ss is already more set up for heavy duty track use than a pp2 and early gt350s.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

Which is why the SS is the most boring 450hp car ever and the mustang is a riot.

For a race track I’ll take an underpowered car
For the street, give me an overpowered car

Nothing more fun than a car that makes more power than it should.

What a strange statement to make. You can easily hoon around and break the ass end on an ss, the difference is that you can get it back into control with relative ease, the mustang might be done for if taken too far.

Not to mention for street hooting, that power down low is where its at and you can kick the back end out even at low revs.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I get what you are saying, and not arguing against it, but our discussion didn't start with what YOU expeced, it was with what FORD was expecting, and my point is (and still is) that Ford wasn't surprised. They knew the 6th Gen would go on the Alpha chassis and have the powertrain from the Corvette, both of which were already on the streets. No surprises or top secret developments, just parts out of the bin. Ford knew what was coming and how well it would do, they just didn't want to comit tons of monetary resources to deal with it (like develop a new platform for the Mustang). And it was a good decision, since the Mustang has sold better anyway.

So, I believe you when you say that YOU didn't expect the Camaro to be this good, and that's okay, you don't get paid to reseach Ford's competition for them. No biggie, but Ford was NOT caught off guard or surprised, they just chose to take a certain route that would let the Camaro be the better performer for this generation for business reasons...

Got you

Originally Posted by hotlap

The base SS hasn’t gotten the press but it’s also a very capable car.

Motor Trend skipped the H2H between the SS and GT and instead ran the SS against the M4.

The 2018 PP1 was then mismatched against the SS 1LE in a H2H when the SS was enough to beat it.

The SS ran 0.82 faster than the 2018 PP1 (heartbreaker) when comparing the two tests. The SS can also burn a full tank of gas at 10/10 without overheating and it’s tires have more than one hero lap in them. (looking at you PP2)

Results from the two H2H follow.

Streets of Willow

01:20.67 - 2018 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
01:22.94 - 2015 BMW M4
01:23.15 - 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS (2SS)
01:23.97 - 2018 Ford Mustang GT Performance Pack 1

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...let-camaro-ss/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...ck-comparison/

...and the SS 1LE is on another level.

Agree 100% And by your own data we see the base SS is better by about a second than a PP1 (and better equipped to repeat). and like you said once you get to the 1LE it is an entirely different level. And that was kind of my main point, and I didn't want it to sound like a knock on the SS. But the 1LE is just above and beyond

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That is exactly how it’s done. TBH, I think Ford would manage it the same way but as soon as they decided to stay the course with D2C, they pretty much understood where their high water mark was and realized that for GT350 and GT500, they’d have to do some additional metal-bending to produce a capable vehicle. GM’s advantage with starting with Alpha is huge.

Look at it another way...Tadge was very clear in his discussions with leadership in development of C7 and early planning of C8 that there were things that simply could not be done with the Y-Car platform. They had stretched it as far as they could. “You want more car? Pony up for a new architecture. And while you’re at it, let me tell you where the engine should go.”

Always love this kind of insight!

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

WHich further goes to show how uninformed people who buy Mustangs are. They look at price and "460 HP" and know nothing more about the car. They then say "oh I can get a 460 HP GT for $27K but the SS is $40K-ish and it has less HP". For the posers they ca even step up to the PP1 and get 3.73 gears, a badge, a strut tower brace, rear Brembos, a cool gauge and they think they're riding high. ANd since they'll never race they won't ever realize how deficient that car is. The ones who do try to race...boy do they find out.

That's the thing I think alot of people on all forums forget. So many of these cars are never driven close to their potential or pushed harder than accelerating hard onto the expressway or maybe a WOT pull from a stop light. the people that come onto forums and actually do push them hard and discuss how pushing them to the limits and what not is a small percentage of the people that own the cars.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Would it be accurate to say that when the 13 GT500 arrived with its 662 HP, the Camaro team already knew what the 17 ZL1 would be?

When people say Chevy should have responded by increasing the power in the gen5 ZL1, I’ve always responded that they where already working on the 17 ZL1 with a 650 HP LT4. Plus, they were on the eve of the 14 Z/28, 14 C7 launch and the 15 Z06 was right behind them. ...not to mention Cadillac and the ground breaking 16 Aplha Camaro

I think the thing that always gets people is that they had an option available. they had the LS9 sitting there. Just like now they have the LT5 sitting there.( and yes I know I have argued that they have never put the ZR1 engine in anything else...but they could if they wanted to) I think that is what really rubs people the wrong way about it, is they see the competition continually updating and when GM has options available they are just like nah were good.

GT500 from 09-13 went from 500, to 540, to 550 to 662.
Hellcat has gone from 707, to 717, and now in RE trim to 797.

It's not like Ford or Dodge had a engine sitting there (well the RE did I guess, detuned Demon engine) where as GM does. That's what bugs me about it.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Pp1 is what a gt should be imo. The base gt is a stripper car.

Probably the best way to line them up now is probably

GT to LT1
GT PP1 to SS
GT PP2 to SS 1LE

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

Nothing more fun than a car that makes more power than it should.

Maybe for people who like to lose races and get walked stoplight to stoplight.