[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The base SS hasn’t gotten the press but it’s also a very capable car.
Motor Trend skipped the H2H between the SS and GT and instead ran the SS against the M4.
The 2018 PP1 was then mismatched against the SS 1LE in a H2H when the SS was enough to beat it.
The SS ran 0.82 faster than the 2018 PP1 (heartbreaker) when comparing the two tests. The SS can also burn a full tank of gas at 10/10 without overheating and it’s tires have more than one hero lap in them. (looking at you PP2)
Results from the two H2H follow.

Streets of Willow
01:20.67 - 2018 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
01:22.94 - 2015 BMW M4
01:23.15 - 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS (2SS)
01:23.97 - 2018 Ford Mustang GT Performance Pack 1
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...let-camaro-ss/
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...ck-comparison/

...and the SS 1LE is on another level.

Agree with all of this except you don't understand the tires. You cannot compare the RunCraps to a MPSC2 or a G3. Throw the G3s on the SS and I bet it knocks off 2 seconds on Streets of Willow. While the MPSC2s absolutely give a hero lap, their 100th lap will be faster than the runcraps 1st lap, especially with the huge size difference...

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not many people would buy it tho. Sure everyone wants it. And everyone wants to see it. But will it sell at the high price it surely will cost amidst the C8 arrivals? I doubt it. I wouldn't buy one. Because C8 Z06. All you'd have is a bunch of dreamers and trolls in trucks and whatever the hell they claim they have as they sit in their parent's basement trolling the internet dreaming and trash talking about cars they'll never own. So it's not a viable option. At best maybe as a limited edition end Gen option. Make limited amounts, secure the sales, number them, call it a day.

The dreamers sell cars though clearly. Look at all the V6 and RT Challenger owners that drool over Hellcats, Redeyes, and Demons oh my!

Originally Posted by hotlap

I posted data and made an observation. The SS is a very capable budget track car that doesn’t get the press. It much, much more capable than a GT, PP1 or PP2

As for your new fan club. I’ve never gone 180 mph ...but I have gone 130 mph (210 kpm) in autobahn traffic

Neither has he, it's ok

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Also you can get the SS with options that the GT doesn't offer. This is the standard entry level V8 Camaro were talking about. And it is better and offers more and is more capable than the PP2 and GT Premium combined. And GM has no bones about you taking it out racing. And heck, even the GT500 will show effects from heat than the SS. At least you can keep going lap after lap in the SS. The GT500 will lose a full second. And weren't GT350s going into limp mode and catching fire?

The GT500 lost that time because the tires, as I said so long ago once again and it's proven in the video these guys just posted.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Right on. I see the SS package misunderstood even by Camaro fans. Each model progressively builds upon the base SS.
The SS has Brembo brakes on four corners, brake cooling ducts, the three radiator heavy duty cooling, oil/trans/diff coolers, summer only performance tires, auto rev matching and a warranty to play ...standard.

I assume you are referring to the “Behind the Scenes” video of ICONS GT500 / 911 GT3 RS.
There is a good discussion about how the cars ran starting at 27:30. The GT500 has one good lap on new tires and then dropped 0.8 sec on the second and 1.0 sec on the third. They run three consecutive laps. The 911 was consistent, 0.1, on it’s three. They also say the track favored power.

I hate that so many even Camaro owners as you pointed out, don't understand that the regular SS is track ready. They think it's basically what the new LT1 is I guess.

You must have missed the part where they said heavier cars always drop off more and mentioned the GT500 is 1000lbs heavier than the Porsche. Which I've also pointed out numerous times that is why it fell off more on the same tires. Camissa even went on saying that the power wasn't falling off and they checked the data.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Absolutely.

I’m the lead engineer for the Americas in my company and have been part of global platform design. I have no doubt that Chevy Performance knew the entire Camaro lineup during the planning phase and ensured that much could be shared, top down. Parts designed for the power and weight of the ZL1 are the base for the SS.

Even the I4 and V6 1LEs use the SS platform spec (tires, brakes, cooling, etc) as their foundation.

The S550 does appear to have aimed too low and then the adjusted. Delayed the GT500 and redesigned the GT, etc. a bit of a patchwork

No wonder you know soo much.

Perfect example is that you can do nothing more than throw a blower and slap a tire on the SS and it'll handle that power effectively. Even better on the SLE. Do that on the GT and you'll snap an axle or driveshaft or spin out of control or have heat soak issues. It'll be sloppy with that power which is why they need to have several things upgraded at the same time.

WHich further goes to show how uninformed people who buy Mustangs are. They look at price and "460 HP" and know nothing more about the car. They then say "oh I can get a 460 HP GT for $27K but the SS is $40K-ish and it has less HP". For the posers they ca even step up to the PP1 and get 3.73 gears, a badge, a strut tower brace, rear Brembos, a cool gauge and they think they're riding high. ANd since they'll never race they won't ever realize how deficient that car is. The ones who do try to race...boy do they find out.

Originally Posted by LESS1

As more proof of the Alpha advantages consider this blast from the past. V6 1LE with a ~100HP and 116lb-ft power deficit spanks Frod Mustang GT PP1 on 19-inch Pirelli P Zero tires at C&D LL by over 1 second on smaller 20 inch 245 front and 275 rear Good Year Eagle F1 tires. Clear tire advantage for PP1. GT is obviously faster in every measured speed metric yet is still slower around a proper racetrack that favors power because the chassis cannot take advantage of this power in an efficient manner. And sure, I get the same day argument. But in this case with such a large power advantage, unless Snack Pack 1 was tested on 100deg day with rain and V6 1LE test was in the dead of winter the Mustang should have crushed the Camaro.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-2015-feature/

Well now the excuse is that driver error can account for over a full second. But only when the Mustang is behind. And only the Mustang drivers have the errors when it is same day same track. So basically even tho it is a second behind are still tied according to the trolls.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That is exactly how it’s done. TBH, I think Ford would manage it the same way but as soon as they decided to stay the course with D2C, they pretty much understood where their high water mark was and realized that for GT350 and GT500, they’d have to do some additional metal-bending to produce a capable vehicle. GM’s advantage with starting with Alpha is huge.

Look at it another way...Tadge was very clear in his discussions with leadership in development of C7 and early planning of C8 that there were things that simply could not be done with the Y-Car platform. They had stretched it as far as they could. “You want more car? Pony up for a new architecture. And while you’re at it, let me tell you where the engine should go.”

I could see after all GM put into the ZL1 and then Ford says "hey we're building a 760 HP GT500 for 2020 that can handle"...and GM says "sure, we're working on the mid engine C8 and the next Gen Camaro but good luck". LOL!!

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

But you can’t see out of it. Hey, c’mon....somebody had to say it.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That is exactly how it’s done. TBH, I think Ford would manage it the same way but as soon as they decided to stay the course with D2C, they pretty much understood where their high water mark was and realized that for GT350 and GT500, they’d have to do some additional metal-bending to produce a capable vehicle. GM’s advantage with starting with Alpha is huge.

Look at it another way...Tadge was very clear in his discussions with leadership in development of C7 and early planning of C8 that there were things that simply could not be done with the Y-Car platform. They had stretched it as far as they could. “You want more car? Pony up for a new architecture. And while you’re at it, let me tell you where the engine should go.”

I really appreciate you and hotlaps insights.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I could see after all GM put into the ZL1 and then Ford says "hey we're building a 760 HP GT500 for 2020 that can handle"...and GM says "sure, we're working on the mid engine C8 and the next Gen Camaro but good luck". LOL!!

Ain't that the truth.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by oldman

I really appreciate you and hotlaps insights.

You have a lot of valuable insight as well. Gotts say, we got a bunch of good well informed people here. And 3 or 4 trolls but hey. Good to have you in the mix as well.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by oldman

I really appreciate you and hotlaps insights.

I can say the same for you two, too.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

Agree with all of this except you don't understand the tires. You cannot compare the RunCraps to a MPSC2 or a G3. Throw the G3s on the SS and I bet it knocks off 2 seconds on Streets of Willow. While the MPSC2s absolutely give a hero lap, their 100th lap will be faster than the runcraps 1st lap, especially with the huge size difference...

You misinterpret what I was trying to say.

I wasn’t suggesting a SS will run equal to a PP2 when disadvantaged by its MPSC2 tires. I was poking at the PP2 being a non-track car with MPSC2 tires and no cooling. The base SS, for $37k, on GY Asymmetric 3 tires is equipped to run consistently. It won’t go into limp mode and it’s tires won’t have just one good lap. It would win the race.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The SS can also burn a full tank of gas at 10/10 without overheating and it’s tires have more than one hero lap in them. (looking at you PP2)

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

You must have missed the part where they said heavier cars always drop off more and mentioned the GT500 is 1000lbs heavier than the Porsche. Which I've also pointed out numerous times that is why it fell off more on the same tires. Camissa even went on saying that the power wasn't falling off and they checked the data.

I didn’t say the GT500’s power was falling off. I was pointing out that it is capable of one hero lap ...if it starts out on new tires. It then falls off significantly.

Recall the conclusion of the Throttle House GT500 vs ZL1 1LE where they site the 500’s worn tires? If only it had new tires... It’s only capable of one lap.

Did you see the part in the Behind the Scenes video where they said Pobst drove the GT3 RS with his foot on the floor and ran three consistent laps with no fade. Pobst hands barely moved while driving the Porsche.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The GT500 has one good lap on new tires and then dropped 0.8 sec on the second and 1.0 sec on the third. They run three consecutive laps. The 911 was consistent, 0.1, on it’s three. They also say the track favored power.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by oldman

I really appreciate you and hotlaps insights.

Thanks oldman. I really appreciate the depth of your knowledge and comments also.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I can say the same for your two, too.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That is exactly how it’s done. TBH, I think Ford would manage it the same way but as soon as they decided to stay the course with D2C, they pretty much understood where their high water mark was and realized that for GT350 and GT500, they’d have to do some additional metal-bending to produce a capable vehicle. GM’s advantage with starting with Alpha is huge.

Look at it another way...Tadge was very clear in his discussions with leadership in development of C7 and early planning of C8 that there were things that simply could not be done with the Y-Car platform. They had stretched it as far as they could. “You want more car? Pony up for a new architecture. And while you’re at it, let me tell you where the engine should go.”

Would it be accurate to say that when the 13 GT500 arrived with its 662 HP, the Camaro team already knew what the 17 ZL1 would be?

When people say Chevy should have responded by increasing the power in the gen5 ZL1, I’ve always responded that they where already working on the 17 ZL1 with a 650 HP LT4. Plus, they were on the eve of the 14 Z/28, 14 C7 launch and the 15 Z06 was right behind them. ...not to mention Cadillac and the ground breaking 16 Aplha Camaro

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You misinterpret what I was trying to say.

I wasn’t suggesting a SS will run equal to a PP2 when disadvantaged by its MPSC2 tires. I was poking at the PP2 being a non-track car with MPSC2 tires and no cooling. The base SS, for $37k, on GY Asymmetric 3 tires is equipped to run consistently. It won’t go into limp mode and it’s tires won’t have just one good lap. It would win the race.

I didn’t say the GT500’s power was falling off. I was pointing out that it is capable of one hero lap ...if it starts out on new tires. It then falls off significantly.

Recall the conclusion of the Throttle House GT500 vs ZL1 1LE where they site the 500’s worn tires? If only it had new tires... It’s only capable of one lap.

Did you see the part in the Behind the Scenes video where they said Pobst could drive the GT3 RS with his foot on the floor and run three consistent laps with no fade. Pobst hands barely move while driving the Porsche.

I'd say 99% of us knew what you meant while 1 failed to comprehend.

Tires, weight, temps, any of the other 20 excuses, the GT500 fell on it's face after 1 lap. While some "genius" might wanna run around telling us what we already know, it is clear that the GT500 is mismatched and not properly engineered like the ZL1 was.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Would it be accurate to say that when the 13 GT500 arrived with its 662 HP, the Camaro team already knew what the 17 ZL1 would be?

Not to the nth degree of detail. They would have known that a more complete Camaro on Alpha would be on its way and that it would be expected to outperform GT500. They more than likely would not have been able to tell you what the power output would be. Target? Yes. Actual? No.

Originally Posted by hotlap

When people say Chevy should have responded by increasing the power in the gen5 ZL1, I’ve always responded that they where already working on the 17 ZL1 with a 650 HP LT4. Plus, they were on the eve of the 14 Z/28, 14 C7 launch and the 15 Z06 was right behind them. ...not to mention Cadillac and the ground breaking 16 Aplha Camaro

As BlaqWhole and others have said before, GM typically sets a target, exceeds it, introduces the car, and leaves it alone, moving on to the next vehicle.

[BlaqWhole]

Ford is no threat to GM anymore. Not in performance. Not when a brand new $94K 760 HP GT500 that was 6 years in the making is getting tossed by $70K 650 ZL1 thats been around untouched for 3 years. The Mustang's competition is 370Zs and WRXs now.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'd say 99% of us knew what you meant while 1 failed to comprehend.

Tires, weight, temps, any of the other 20 excuses, the GT500 fell on it's face after 1 lap. While some "genius" might wanna run around telling us what we already know, it is clear that the GT500 is mismatched and not properly engineered like the ZL1 was.

Yeah. I felt that he was carrying on with the debate he had earlier with you.