[catdog]

Originally Posted by 93oh

Nurburgring...? how about a commute to work with twisty roads and back...? Germany is a bit far to take a drive. Everyone obsessed with power the 350 is a high 11 car 12:00 ish and the Zl1 is beastly as well. I own both so can tell you the Gt350 is an amazing little car too. But totally different feels and experiences.

I just got a GT350 and traded in my Focus RS for an upcoming ZL1 that's now status 4300....

Loved my SS and wanted more of of it thus ZL1 but the GT350 is a more tactile experience, more raw, unhinged sound and feel wise (if not outright numbers), and rifle-bolt transmission... I think they are very different in feel altogether...

I think you gotta have both really...

Also, initially felt claustrophobic but the cocoon like feel of the gen 6 camaro cockpit grows on you and i miss it...

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Artos

mlee was telling me Ford doesn't dump the $$$$ into the ring like GM does & maybe why they don't have an official time?? Seems strange with that place sorta being a standard of sorts for bragging rights. Anyway, thought I would throw it out there.

I feel both cars are solid...I likely would have been in a 350R if a dealer would have sold at sticker. Fate works it ways sometimes & tickled to tears with the A10. The 1Le & it's wing is growing on me though, especially the pic you have tied to the fest & will be interesting to see the future write ups.

I don't think anything anywhere will be able to touch this car in this price range...it's quite impressive. However, the more I read about it's dedicated suspension and the lack of track time / distance I will be able to do. The A10 is the better animal for me. Nothing but all the way around.

It's a good time to be an enthusiast.

It's hard to call the Nuremberg ring a standard when there's nobody to verify that the actual standard is followed. It's silly.

[catdog]

Originally Posted by Infern0

These are all great discussions, as with the HC, when it comes to the same professional driver in each car on his best day. But with the variables in each of our skill levels and how easy it is to miss a shift on one run, or hit the red line on another, miss a reaction by half a second, really makes the biggest difference in each of these. That's what I love about it and the hobby. I don't get a hard-on knowing I should be faster on paper if I can't back it up. Likewise I don't have any remorse for my car choice if it turns out it should be slower on paper, cause I still know I'll win a lot of the time.

Here Here...!
What he said...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by TJay74

Yeah I know, but I really wanted to see the ZL1 1LE drop some serious weight. 60lbs really isn't much in my mind, but alas it would prob cost an arm and a leg to drop anything more than that at this point.

It's not a lot, on it's own...but look at it this way...

The A10 ZL1 that went around the Nurburgring weighed 3944...the ZL1 1LE, weighs 3820. That's 124 lbs less than what they consider is their current superstar.

The last gen Z/28 weighed an identical 3820, stripped as it was, and without air conditioning...

What they learned in terms of sales was that people weren't thrilled with the idea of buying a stripped-to-nothing Camaro for $70k+...so they put it all back in this time around. And this car, with all it's equipment, supercharger, heavy eLSD, etc...weighs identical to the last Z/28, but holds more G's, creates more downforce (300 lbs with the wing, compared to 150 lbs with the Z/28 spoiler + gurney flap), and has effectively 150 more hp and 180 more ft/lb. Just...wow.

(I rambled a little, but I think the point was made).

ZL1 A10 - 3944
ZL1 M6 - 3883
ZL1 1LE - 3820
SS 1LE - 3747
SS M6 - 3685

Theoretically, if they put the thinner glass, DSSV, and 19" wheels/tires on a SS 1LE, we'd be looking at a 3687 lb car...or, just 133lb lighter than the ZL1 1LE is already. I think, for what we get, it's actually pretty impressive. But I'm also head over heels for this car.

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I'm not sure why anybody would really care. There needs to be a sanctioning body that verifies that the claimed vehicles are even stock otherwise what's the point. Manufacturers can claim whatever they want with absolutely zero ramifications.

Sure can...until the first one gets caught and their reputation FLIES out the window faster than their lap time. I think it's a case of implied pressure to be honest.

And, frankly, for a car development team - there's a helluva lot of pride mixed in there. These times aren't competitive...there's no money to be won, and I really don't think tenths of a second around the Nordschleife sells cars, directly. Most "anybodys" who walk into a dealership wouldn't know what that means.

BUT! My goodness, if you've spend the last year of your life tuning and calibrating a car...and it is capable (on its own) of putting down an impressive time, wouldn't you leave it alone? That's your impressive work in those numbers, unadulterated.

I might just be too optimistic.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sounding more and more like the GT500 will be a ZL1 1LE..................with an extra 150 hp.

For has two options with this car...either A, chase the demon...or B, chase the ZL1 1LE. I don't think they're going to make any headlines doing A...nor will B be very easy, because as you said - GM has historically, been better at developing chassis.

IF...they choose to chase the ZL1 1LE It's going to be extremely expensive...they have no choice, the ZL1 is already the same price as the GT350R.

Originally Posted by Number 3

If a GT350 or 350R can keep up with a ZL1 1LE being down 100 HP, then GM didn't do the job I think they did in the handling department. GM has always been better at Ford in this area. So this should be no comparison. If it is then Ford has a tremendous chassis.......and I don't think they do or have the ability to refine it as well as GM does.

What that car has going for it, the most...is those super lightweight CF wheels...that is a ridiculous amount of rolling resistance...GONE. And that helps the GT350R go fast in ways that I think few realize.

Once up in the revs, the engine performs admirably, and puts out good power.

But...here's why I lack faith Ford's track car will be able to cope with the ZL1 in a head-to-head on track:

MT Figure 8
ZL1: 23.1s @ .91g
GT350R: 23.3s @ .87g

Virginia International Raceway
SS 1LE: 2:54.8
GT350R: 2:51.8
'14 Z/28: 2:50.9

VIR is a fast course, and the SS 1LE doesn't have enough grunt to keep up, nor the r-compound tires the other two I listed benefit from. The ZL1 has mountains more grunt, and similar handling figures to the Gen Five Z/28.

Laguna Seca
SS 1LE: 1:37.78
GT350R: 1:36.11

Originally Posted by Number 3

As for dropping "serious" weight, you would have had to have $10,000 to $15,000 in premium materials. Probably more. Carbon Fiber, Aluminium and Magnesium don't come cheap. Not to mention all the retest and validation. I don't see that happening. The ZL1 has been a great combination of getting all the features and all the performance. Not a spartan Z/28.

And it's the only one of the 1LE offerings, to actually drop weight on the car they put it on...

Originally Posted by zipline

That is an excellent point. Think of all the potential chicanery. Cars could come with jagged edge tuning that would be nowhere near EPA compliant or a motor way over cammed on 14:1 compression, who would know? Tons of stuff removed from the cover of the dash and center stack. Air conditioning components removed, audio head unit with face but nothing behind it, speakers removed, sound insulation gone, etc. A couple hundred pounds could disappear real quick.

Yes it could. I guess it just depends on how much we trust the integrity of one manufacturer over another...and if anybody gets caught.

There was a case, years ago, when one of the early GT-Rs was out on the track, and someone claimed they saw that car go 'round with racing slicks. But I think that was debunked.

Originally Posted by Artos

mlee was telling me Ford doesn't dump the $$$$ into the ring like GM does & maybe why they don't have an official time?? Seems strange with that place sorta being a standard of sorts for bragging rights. Anyway, thought I would throw it out there.

I've heard the same, and GM has been putting out 'Ring times since the C6 Z06...so it's not as though this is a new practice. Some manufacturers put out a time...others do not.

Originally Posted by Artos

It's a good time to be an enthusiast.

Most definitely.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

It's not a lot, on it's own...but look at it this way...

The A10 ZL1 that went around the Nurburgring weighed 3944...the ZL1 1LE, weighs 3820. That's 124 lbs less than what they consider is their current superstar.

The last gen Z/28 weighed an identical 3820, stripped as it was, and without air conditioning...

What they learned in terms of sales was that people weren't thrilled with the idea of buying a stripped-to-nothing Camaro for $70k+...so they put it all back in this time around. And this car, with all it's equipment, supercharger, heavy eLSD, etc...weighs identical to the last Z/28, but holds more G's, creates more downforce (300 lbs with the wing, compared to 150 lbs with the Z/28 spoiler + gurney flap), and has effectively 150 more hp and 180 more ft/lb. Just...wow.

(I rambled a little, but I think the point was made).

ZL1 A10 - 3944
ZL1 M6 - 3883
ZL1 1LE - 3820
SS 1LE - 3747
SS M6 - 3685

Theoretically, if they put the thinner glass, DSSV, and 19" wheels/tires on a SS 1LE, we'd be looking at a 3687 lb car...or, just 133lb lighter than the ZL1 1LE is already. I think, for what we get, it's actually pretty impressive. But I'm also head over heels for this car.




Sure can...until the first one gets caught and their reputation FLIES out the window faster than their lap time. I think it's a case of implied pressure to be honest.

And, frankly, for a car development team - there's a helluva lot of pride mixed in there. These times aren't competitive...there's no money to be won, and I really don't think tenths of a second around the Nordschleife sells cars, directly. Most "anybodys" who walk into a dealership wouldn't know what that means.

BUT! My goodness, if you've spend the last year of your life tuning and calibrating a car...and it is capable (on its own) of putting down an impressive time, wouldn't you leave it alone? That's your impressive work in those numbers, unadulterated.

I might just be too optimistic.



For has two options with this car...either A, chase the demon...or B, chase the ZL1 1LE. I don't think they're going to make any headlines doing A...nor will B be very easy, because as you said - GM has historically, been better at developing chassis.

IF...they choose to chase the ZL1 1LE It's going to be extremely expensive...they have no choice, the ZL1 is already the same price as the GT350R.


What that car has going for it, the most...is those super lightweight CF wheels...that is a ridiculous amount of rolling resistance...GONE. And that helps the GT350R go fast in ways that I think few realize.

Once up in the revs, the engine performs admirably, and puts out good power.

But...here's why I lack faith Ford's track car will be able to cope with the ZL1 in a head-to-head on track:

MT Figure 8
ZL1: 23.1s @ .91g
GT350R: 23.3s @ .87g

Virginia International Raceway
SS 1LE: 2:54.8
GT350R: 2:51.8
'14 Z/28: 2:50.9

VIR is a fast course, and the SS 1LE doesn't have enough grunt to keep up, nor the r-compound tires the other two I listed benefit from. The ZL1 has mountains more grunt, and similar handling figures to the Gen Five Z/28.

Laguna Seca
SS 1LE: 1:37.78
GT350R: 1:36.11




And it's the only one of the 1LE offerings, to actually drop weight on the car they put it on...


Yes it could. I guess it just depends on how much we trust the integrity of one manufacturer over another...and if anybody gets caught.

There was a case, years ago, when one of the early GT-Rs was out on the track, and someone claimed they saw that car go 'round with racing slicks. But I think that was debunked.


I've heard the same, and GM has been putting out 'Ring times since the C6 Z06...so it's not as though this is a new practice. Some manufacturers put out a time...others do not.


Most definitely.

And how exactly would they get "caught" if there isn't anybody even assigned to catch them? It's like banning steroids without drug testing. It's completely pointless LOL

[Artos]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

It's hard to call the Nuremberg ring a standard when there's nobody to verify that the actual standard is followed. It's silly.

Maybe so, but it's hard to discredit such a course / time when so many folks discuss the ring when comparing what a car is capable of doing...I do wish there a set standard.

Regardless, when someone sees a posted time / hero lap for a stated factory vehicle...you better chime in unless simply a debbie downer. I haven't seen anyone poo-poo the A10 vid as anything other than legit.

Ford & Dodge should both be on board here, along with other high profile tracks to help us enthusiasts keep tabs.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

And how exactly would they get "caught" if there isn't anybody even assigned to catch them? It's like banning steroids without drug testing. It's completely pointless LOL

I don't underestimate the spy photographers, and other manufacturers playing dirty with one another. It's a closed circuit over there when it's time to perform hero runs...all the manufacturers' teams have to play nice.

It's not as though it's a complete free-for all, though....the new business/entity that owns and operates the Nurburgring has put strict rules (and charges) in place for any manufacturer that intents to run a car and claim the time in advertising/media materials.

I don't know whether or not any of those stipulations requires checking the car...doubtful.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Artos

Maybe so, but it's hard to discredit such a course / time when so many folks discuss the ring when comparing what a car is capable of doing...I do wish there a set standard.

Regardless, when someone sees a posted time / hero lap for a stated factory vehicle...you better chime in unless simply a debbie downer. I haven't seen anyone poo-poo the A10 vid as anything other than legit.

Ford & Dodge should both be on board here, along with other high profile tracks to help us enthusiasts keep tabs.

I agree that manufacturers should get together and set a standard that could and are verified, such as they did with SAE Certification of horsepower/torque ratings. But other than that, any published numbers should not be taken too seriously.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I agree that manufacturers should get together and set a standard that could and are verified, such as they did with SAE Certification of horsepower/torque ratings. But other than that, any published numbers should not be taken too seriously.

Agreed.

Though they shouldn't be discredited, either. We take people's word around here all the time...

A manufacturer-supplied video helps debunk a lot of paranoia. And on a track as long as that...a range of times is sufficient to gauge the performance level of a car.

[catdog]

I hope the ZL1 is manual so we don't get a apples to oranges test...
If it's the A10 then conclusion is foregone...

[DrkPhx]

Keep in mind the OEM's rated curb weights includes a full tank of gas which adds a lot of weight. I think the weight of the ZL1 1LE is impressive considering it has a supercharger and all of the supporting hardware. I still think GM will unleash a N/A Z/28 later in the production cycle after the other OEM's have played out their hand.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by DrkPhx

Keep in mind the OEM's rated curb weights includes a full tank of gas which adds a lot of weight. I think the weight of the ZL1 1LE is impressive considering it has a supercharger and all of the supporting hardware. I still think GM will unleash a N/A Z/28 later in the production cycle after the other OEM's have played out their hand.

More on this. The ZL1 1LE weighs 3823lbs and is fully loaded. The GT350R 3670lbs bare bones with no back seat. So the weight difference is 153lbs. Then the zl1 carries 3 more gal of gas then the gt350, so that adds 20lbs. So in all reality the zl1 1le is only 133lbs heavier the the R. If you put the electric package on the R, now it's under 100lbs. GM did great for getting a FI engine in a fully loaded car to be within 100lbs of a NA GT350R with elec package.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by h777

I really look forward to seeing this. I have seen video's of Randy's test on the GT350R and he is in love with it. Randy was so excited, he even gave it a fist pump while driving. All the Motortrend editors also love the GT350R. I never seen them so excited for a car under $100k. I did not the same excitement from Randy when he was on the Ignition episode of ZL1. Almost seemed calm but appreciative of what the ZL1 is capable of. Not sure, maybe he had much higher expectations than when he reviewed the GT350R?

Should be a close race since they are only 3 seconds apart on the Nurburgring. One can only imagine how close a shorter race track will be. Could be a lot closer than people think since Randy is very familiar with the capabilities of GT350R. He has been reviewing them for a couple years now. ZL1 should be going into this as the favorites.

I have also watched the show and Randy Pobst was making fun of the A10 trans. He likes manuals it seems.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by TJay74

Yeah I know, but I really wanted to see the ZL1 1LE drop some serious weight. 60lbs really isn't much in my mind, but alas it would prob cost an arm and a leg to drop anything more than that at this point.

But to drop weight like the 350R, you gotta lose the back seat, A/C, radio, etc